Steve Mesirow: How Solo Attorneys Can Defer Hundreds of Thousands in Taxes

Voiceover: Ron, welcome to the 1958 Lawyer, the show for attorneys who know the old model isn’t working anymore. The billable hour, the 12 hour day, the expensive office no one visits. Your host, Ron and Rebecca Bockstahler, are here to question all of that and more by exploring smarter, healthier, more flexible ways to run a law firm. No more burnout, no more outdated expectations, just real conversations with attorneys who are proving there’s a better way. If you’re ready to build a law firm that’s profitable and livable, you’re in the right place. Now, here are your hosts, Ron and Rebecca.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 lawyer, the podcast about the business of law. I’m your host, Ron Bockstahler, joined by my co-host, RB. Here’s the number most solo attorneys never heard: in 2026 a solo practitioner can shelter up to $72,000 in a single retirement account, and with that right structure stacked on top, defer well past a quarter of a million dollars before the tax bill ever comes due, but most small firm lawyers are so heads down on billables that nobody ever builds that structure, so they find out in April what they could have set in motion back in June. Our guest today has spent more than 30 years helping business owners flip that script. Steve Mesro is a senior managing director and wealth advisor at Mezaro, the independent employee-owned firm that’s been advising clients since 1937 and a CFP who’s been named a Forbes best in state wealth advisor three years running. He works with business owners and professionals to accumulate, manage, and protect what they build. Steve, welcome to the show.

Steve Mesirow: Thank you, Ron. Nice to see you.

Ron Bockstahler: Great to be talking to you. Okay, before we get to the first question, I want to set the table for our listeners. It’s the middle of the year, which means they’re still tied to change a 26 tax picture instead of just reporting it next spring, and Steve is exactly the right person to talk to us about how to do that. Steve, so let’s start with you. You joined Mesro back in 93 You spent three decades sitting across the table from business owners while they make their biggest financial decisions of their lives. What drew you to this work, and what have you learned about the way professionals, attorneys especially, tend to think about their money?

Steve Mesirow: I love this job. It’s fun for me to make the money fit their lives, and I end up learning. I end up learning a lot about each individual, and I’ve got 100 different tools in my pocket. I gotta, I gotta learn enough about the person to see which ones are applicable and the right ones and there’s every family there’s there’s always something interesting going on with with every family yeah so so I’ve I find this very I find this very fun I enjoy the relationships and I enjoy making this making this thing work,

Ron Bockstahler: and for doing it for over 30 years, guys, it’s hard to even put that in my mind around that. Doing it for over 30 years, I mean, that’s it’s a long time, you’ve seen a lot, and you’ve been with a lot of people for a very, very long time. So, clearly, a trusted advisor, and there’s new

Steve Mesirow: stuff, and there’s new things all the time, every every day, there’s there’s new good surprises,

Rebecca Bockstahler: keeping it interesting. Well, our whole theme today is the mid year check in. I think a lot of people think of taxes or savings as either a January resolution or an April rush to the finish line. So, why is the middle of the year a moment that could matter, and what can a solo attorney or a small firm see in June or July that maybe they wouldn’t see it either of those other times,

Steve Mesirow: so so this is a particularly good time because it’s easy to get other people’s time. I like to have a lot of these retirement plan meetings with the me, the clients, and the accountants together, and we’ll call Team Smith, you know, whatever the person, Team Smith can get together and run through the different scenarios in between the account and myself and the client, we can get to a good solution and get it resolved, the accountants, we don’t want to bug them anywhere near we can’t get them to to fully concentrate and think in March and April or in October or at year end. So this is a good time to get them and get the most value and get the most value out of them.

Ron Bockstahler: If we talk about the attorney that hadn’t, they don’t have anything set up at this point in time. Maybe they just started, they’re just trying to get things rolling for a solo, a small firm getting organized. What are the foundational accounts you’d want them to understand? You know, we’ve talked to you about the 401 k, the SEP, a simple even before we get to, I know the cash balance plan. Maybe this is the time. What about that? How do you explain in English what plain English? What they, what they need to get started with.

Steve Mesirow: So, the the issue here is you got returns and times time, so the earlier you start, the earlier you start, the better off you are, even if it’s with a little, even with it when it’s with small amounts of money, because the compounding and the time is powerful, and you can, and it’s, it’s hard to get that back. We’ll talk later about how to get that back, but it’s much harder to get that. It’s much harder to get that back. So, starting with even a little is powerful, and it gives you more options in what you’re doing here with any type of retirement plan is you’re taking money from your highest earning, you’re taking money from your highest earning years and making the government wait, and that’s to your, that’s to your advantage, and there’s two pieces of that number one, you might be shifting money, shifting money from income during your highest earning years to your retirement years, in your 70s, you know, in your 70s and beyond, your, you’re going to be in lower, you’re probably going to be in lower income years, so you’re shifting your income from high years to low years. Secondly, you get tax advantaged growth for those 10, 2040, years, however long you can do it. And so one of the ways to think about it is with that tax deferred growth is the money that would be going to taxes gets to work for you for 10 2040 for 10 2040 years, so the government’s going to get their share eventually, but if you can utilize that money that you’ve earned and have it working for you for all those years, that’s going to be that’s going to be very powerful and advantageous.

Rebecca Bockstahler: That’s interesting. So I always think that people probably assume that their earning trajectory is always going to be on an uphill glide, so

Steve Mesirow: it will be, but take your clientele exactly like they’re going to be in their highest earning years, probably in their, probably in their 50s and 60s, and then, and then someday that’s going to stop,

Rebecca Bockstahler: right?

Steve Mesirow: Someday that’s going to stop, or at least slow down, depending on your, depending on your practice, it’s going to slow down. So you’re, you’re shifting, but even if you were, even if it was a wash, let’s say you’re in the high bracket, and you’re going to stay in the high bracket forever, you still get use of that money by making the government wait, that money that would be going to taxes gets to earn on it each year, so that tax advantage, tax advantage piece is is terrific, now if you’re a young attorney and your income is low now, and you know it’s going to go up, a Roth IRA or a Roth contribution to your retire to your 401 k, either one Roth money is fantastic because you’re paying the taxes on what your rate is now, but you still get the tax advantage, you get the tax advantage growth for the next, for the next 3040 years. So I tell my young, my young professionals, you know, let’s start doing Roth, and you can do that on top of your, you can do that on top of your 401 k, if you can manage the cash flow

Rebecca Bockstahler: well. Since you brought up the 401 k, I know that once that’s been maxed out, there’s a whole other tier of options that become available for people. So maybe you can kind of explain in everyday terms what that unlocks and what kind of attorney it would actually make sense for

Steve Mesirow: great, so you’re so, so the different levels are first does regular IRA, okay, that’s that’s easy, the next one is 401 k with profit sharing, and your group in particular is is good because there’s a 401 k salary deferral elements to it, but there’s also a company profit sharing contribution to it. Your people in particular don’t have a lot of employees because you’re subbing those out, you’re shoving those out with staff that that amount is providing you

Ron Bockstahler: fractional staff.

Steve Mesirow: Another reason for fractional staff, when you do a profit-sharing contribution, they’re not your employees. You can do it to your employee, which is you. So, and I, and you can be very generous to you. So, so on a 401 k, you can get yourself up to 70 80,000 depending on how old you are. So that’s another big jump. Now, if you’re, if you want to go beyond that, there’s there’s a whole world called cash balance, cash balance retirement plans, and those can get you up to $300,000 a year. So, here I’ll show you, I’ll show you a little illustration of how good of how that works.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, the man comes with slides.

Steve Mesirow: Everybody likes pictures. So, let’s see. Here we go. Let me share this. Okay. So, a cash balance plan is take some elements of 401 k, where you’re putting away, where you’re putting away money on a tax deferred basis, and as some elements of a pension, and what happens in a cash balance plan. And let me go back to the pension part. What happens in a cash balance plan is you’re setting up a pension plan for yourself, so if you’re a solo, if you’re a solopreneur, like many of you are, or you have one partner, you know it’s this is this is a this is an easy one to do. You want to be as generous as you can in setting up a pension, and the government says the biggest pension you can set up, you can set up a pension that will pay you $290,000 in retirement. So, what happens with these kind of plans is they say, say you’re 55 and you said, I want to be as generous as I can to myself, and I have the cash and I have the cash flow, I’m going to the calculation. There is you need about $4.2 million in retirement savings to give yourself a $290,000 to give yourself a $290,000 pension when you retire at 65 So they back it, they back into that, and say, if you put away $310,000 a year for for those 10 years, you’re going to get there, and that’s how you get to put in that artificially high contribution that is so much higher than the 401 k than the 401 k route. So one of the ways I like to think about this is, if you’re putting away $300,000 instead of, instead of 70, instead of 70 $80,000 you’re first off saving $80,000 more a year, and that $80,000 is working for you every year. Now, there’s also a quirk of, well, I guess your people are everywhere. Your people are everywhere. Some states, some states, like Illinois, don’t charge retirement plan distributions, so if you put in $300,000 and then you took out $300,000 it would never get state taxed, but that’s a state by state, that’s a state by state calculation, but the important part is you get another $80,000 that would be going to taxes working for you every year,

Ron Bockstahler: big difference,

Steve Mesirow: big difference, and so what that means is you’re now looking at the, you know, the interest that you’re earning becomes very powerful by 10 years, you’re earning $200,000 a year in interest that you wouldn’t be having otherwise. Now, this is also all of these things are true for Solo 401 K, too, just in a smaller extent. So, you first want to do, if you, if you can do Solo 401 K, terrific, do that. If you have the better, if you have the higher cash flow, and you’re able to do, and you’re able to do this cash balance that’s fantastic, and these are the kinds of plans that, like a Kirkland or a Sidley, or some of those big name firms are putting in for their partners, and yes, you don’t have to be with a big

Ron Bockstahler: firm. You don’t have to be at the big firm to do this. You can go on your own, and you can still do this.

Steve Mesirow: You have access to do it yourself, and the beauty here is you don’t have to make a contribution to you. Normally, you would have to make a contribution to the employees, but. And in most of your cases they don’t have employees, or if they do, they have one or two.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Yeah, so

Ron Bockstahler: okay, can you, if they have one or two employees, can they still do the cash plan? They just got to compensate.

Steve Mesirow: You can still do it, and you can still do the.. you can still do.. you can still do it. And what’s interesting is it’s you’re allowed to skew in favor of older people, so if your staff is, if your staff is younger than you, you’re going to have to put in something for them, but it’s not going to be, it’s not going to be big, the the negative scenario is or the the one you’d want to, you know, run the numbers and really double check it is if you were 50 and your assistant was a was 62 because then you’re going to have to, it happens sometimes, you know, it happens sometimes for whatever reasons, so you’d have to be making a generous contribution to them, and that might be okay.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, right. I mean, if the money, if you got the money, it makes sense, but if you don’t have to, if you don’t have quite that much money, maybe it’s time to reevaluate how you’re running your business. Yeah, it’s this is this is

Steve Mesirow: this is powerful, yeah, this is this is powerful stuff, and for, you know, some law firms are sellable, some are not sellable. This is a great tool to take your business and monetize it and get a and have a big chunk of wealth for you and your family, for you and your family later on, and then, and then we also have some strategies once this is done of what happens with the end game. Oh, so, so the end game on whether it’s a 401 k or cash balance plan when you retire, you roll all this money to an IRA, and then you treat it like a regular IRA. Take as much or as little as you want to each year, and

Ron Bockstahler: so there’s no max, max withdrawals at 70, there’s no

Steve Mesirow: max with no, there’s no maximum on this. Well, there’s a maximum or minimum on the cash balance plan of, you can’t, if we’re, if the government rule is four points is $4.2 million and it goes up a little bit each year, it goes up, it goes up a little bit each year, but if it goes, if the investments do too well, they’re going to slow it down and say we’re funding, we’re back, we’re trying to back into $4.2 million So, if you make too much money, you can’t put away 300,000 310,000 this year, you can only put away 250,000 this year. So, you’re, you’re backing into it, but once you, once you cap that out, and once you get close to that number, you end the plan, roll it into an IRA, and then the earnings are what the earnings are. Nobody, nobody cares that that’s nobody cares at that point, but that’s one of the reasons to one of one of the reasons to monitor it, because you don’t want to, if you’re supposed to be funding to 4.2 and it’s looking like you’re going to have five, and it’s looking like you’re going to have five. They tax that heavily, so we need to monitor that and end the plan, and we need to monitor and end the plan, get it into an IRA, where no one cares,

Rebecca Bockstahler: where no one cares. That’s interesting. Well, if we have a minute, let’s try to kind of go back a little bit to something a little bit more basic, probably. But there are a couple of new rules in 26 that change the math, I’m thinking like the Roth ketchup for high earners. So, what’s actually different this year than attorneys should know about before they make a move?

Steve Mesirow: So, when you have a when you have a solo 401 k or any kind of when you have a 401 k and you’re putting in a catch up contribution which is for those that are over 50 and then they have an even higher there’s there’s there’s even a higher level that has to now go into a Roth 401 k, so as a practical matter, we’re setting these up now for all of our clients that have that have 401 ks. We’re setting up a second account that’s for their solo 401 k regular and their solo 401 k Roth money, and and what will happen is someday when they end the plan, the Roth money will go to a Roth IRA, the regular money will go to a regular, a regular IRA, and it’s still, it’s still advantageous, the money gets to still grow tax advance. Managed, so it’s, it’s a plus, and it’s not so bad to have monies with different tax types. So the other piece that we often have people do is, in addition to their retirement plan, we have them do what’s called a backdoor Roth IRA. So,

Ron Bockstahler: hey, wait, wait, wait, you’re still on my next question. Oh, my apologies. Reading

Steve Mesirow: your.. I wasn’t reading Minecraft. We

Ron Bockstahler: talked, we talked like the cash flow, which I think is just an amazing program that most people I’ve talked to have no idea about, but there’s some other real creative things that I know you got that you’ve talked about, so yeah, definitely. Let’s talk about that, and I don’t always get my mind around the back door, Roth. So if you do talk to me, that’s great.

Steve Mesirow: Sure. So, so here’s so here’s what what you’re allowed to do, even if you’re part of a retirement plan, you’re always allowed to make a IRA con, you’re always allowed to make a non-deductible IRA contribution, and so what you can do is set up your IRA, make a non-deductible contribution every year, and then when you do that, you put in 7500 It has $7,500 a basis. The next week we convert it from regular IRA to Roth IRA, and the tax on that would is effectively zero, because you have $7,500 a basis. They’re going to tax you on the gain when you do a conversion, so normal people, when they have a regular IRA, if you convert a $10,000 IRA to Roth, you have zero basis, you’re paying tax on $10,000 of income. If you have $7,500 a basis, and it goes to $7,500 $7,501 $7,501 you’re theoretically paying tax on the $1 of interest that you earned in that week. So, so what we do is we’ll do a, it’s it, it’s called a back door Roth. It gets you that extra Roth money in that you wouldn’t have had otherwise, and you’d rather have, you’d rather have this than $7,500 in your regular account, because this gets to grow, this gets to grow tax with no taxes, and you get to pull it out with no taxes. So, I’d rather have money, Roth money is the best money to have, because it’s always after tax, and whatever, whatever it grows to, so that’s the, that’s the pinnacle.

Ron Bockstahler: So the big thing in Roth is your, and I think we told our kids this, is have do your Roth right now, so all those earnings you’re not going to pay taxes on down. So

Steve Mesirow: think about this for a young person, think about this for a young person, they put away $7,500 This is going to have 4050, years of growth compounded with no taxes ever. So, even a small amount, even if they’re, even if they can just do, you know, $4,000 fantastic, because it’s going to have all this, it’s going to have all this compounding. Now, I didn’t mention also with the retire, with these retirement plans, 401 k, and the and the pension plan, there’s pretty good creditor protection on all these on all retirement plans, some of it vary state by state. Generally, the only people that can get to your, your retirement plans are the government or your or your ex-spouse. Are the two ones, but general creditors can’t, can’t get it.

Ron Bockstahler: That includes a cash plan.

Steve Mesirow: Yeah, so the OJ Simpson was, was sued for murdering, was sued for murdering those two people. He gets his NFL pension, they can’t touch it. So that’s, that’s strong protection.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Yeah, it’s real strong. Let’s, you brought this up, and my

Ron Bockstahler: goodness, you’re right. You right, you brought this at the beginning of the show, but you do a really, really good job of bringing all the right people together in the room, and I know you like middle of year when everyone’s not quite so busy, or they’re not rushing to do things. Tell me about how you do that, and what your approach is. You’ve been doing it for a long time, you got this down.

Steve Mesirow: So, I’m a.. I like doing this also, because sometimes people in my position, or the accountant, we ask clients questions that they’re not prepared to answer, so they don’t. And and it’s a waste of time, of you know, if I’m the client to have a meeting here, a meeting here, and a meeting here, and then I’m trying to sum it up in my head and convey what’s said to each person. My opinion is, if you’re paying them all, they all should be in the same room, they all should be talking to each other, and I find it ends up, it ends up saving time, certainly saving time for the client, it ends up saving time for me, because you know the client’s not playing telephone, and decisions can get made quicker because all the clients, experts are in the same, are in the same room, so what will sometimes happen is the accountant will suggest something, and the client doesn’t necessarily understand what’s going on, but I do, because I’ve been doing this for years, right, and I’ll nod my head, and I’ll say, Ron, this is what people in your position do, Rebecca, this is, you know, yeah, this, this is, this is how it’s, this is how it’s done. So it gets better, and I find it makes the advice better. I think it makes me better having the other experts there, because they might know something about the clients that I don’t, some source of income they have or something that’s going on with their family or some assets that I don’t know about, so I find it makes me better, so it extracts better value out of me, and I certainly know it extracts better value out of the accountant. Oftentimes the accountants oftentimes they’re not that proactive, and the time you’re talking to them is when you’re getting your tax, your time you’re getting your tax bill, and then you’re discussing your tax bill, and quite frankly, after january 1, there’s not that much the accountant can do,

Rebecca Bockstahler: right? Right,

Steve Mesirow: it’s everything is set at that point. They’re they’re more of a clerk than a, they’re more of a clerk than an advisor, and these people have great knowledge. If you talk to them before year end, if you talk to them before year end, you can extract that value and strategy out of them, so why not.

Ron Bockstahler: Absolutely,

Rebecca Bockstahler: why not. Well, what are the biggest mistakes that you might see solo or small firm attorneys make with their savings and their taxes, and what does waiting actually cost them? And I don’t know, maybe you could give us a story or two about this.

Steve Mesirow: Okay, so first off, waiting is a waiting is, you know, waiting is obviously a problem, because every year you’re missing out and you can’t make that up, but I have a, I have a good story of I have an attorney who she wasn’t making, she got divorced, lost all of her money, bad ex, whatever, bad, bad spouse. She started working, she started working in, in law, and is, is killing it now. But she’s now in her 50s, she’s in her 50s, and she has no savings, so we put in one of these. She’s now making a million dollars a year, and this is all new to her. She hasn’t, she hasn’t saved anything, so we put in one of these cash balance plans for her. She didn’t quite understand it, but myself and the accountant both, both explained in and talked to her about it, and this is going to save her about two years of working to get her clothes and to get her to where she wants to be for retirement, so we’re going to save, we’re going to save this woman two years of cranking out 80 hours of 80 plus hours a week of things that she doesn’t necessarily enjoy that much, so this is a this is a fantastic tool to catch up.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, I mean, it’s amazing what you can do. Well, see, we’re running out of time. Let’s make this actionable. Attorneys listening right now give us like what’s may give us two things, but what’s the number one thing they need to do if they don’t have anything in place right now?

Steve Mesirow: You need to start. You need to start now, and you need to call myself. You can call the equivalent of, you know, the equivalent of me, but you should, you should start now. And I would say the other Rebecca, going back to your question, one of the items I see people do is they get too conservative, so my. A great fear in life is that somebody lives a long, healthy, happy life, they live to 100 they live to 100 and people have this artificial, sometimes they have this artificial number in their head that, okay, at x age, whether it’s 65 or whatever their numbers at that point I’m going to get conservative, or my parents only lived till x age, I don’t need to worry about extending out, and nowadays I got lots of people living to their 90s, you know, easy, I got a, I got a few hundreds,

Rebecca Bockstahler: wow,

Steve Mesirow: so, so for me being conservative is safe in the short term, but it’s risky in the long term, because you’re going to run out of money. The risk, the risk that goes up, and of the markets going up and down, and they will, there’ll be, there will be a 20 30% drop at some point, it could be in two months, it could be in two years, but the risk is is not gaining long term returns and limiting yourself, limiting, limiting yourself, and limiting your options, having the more money, having the more money saved away just opens up your options, if you love what you do, you keep doing it, and always find you can always find relatives to give to with you, but you want to have, you want to have options,

Rebecca Bockstahler: yeah,

Steve Mesirow: that’s what you want to build,

Rebecca Bockstahler: that makes sense. Well, I do want to squeeze in one more thing, even though I know that we’re running out of time, I know that you like to connect to people, and your team does these art reach gatherings that mix good food, art, business. If you step back from the numbers after 30 years, what does all the savings and planning really for?

Steve Mesirow: Was I think I would go back to the, the, the pieces that it opens up, the, the options that it opens up for people, whether they want to do something, whether it’s their retirement, but it doesn’t have to be their retirement, it could be, it could be their kids that they want to help, it could be philanthropy that they want to help, and we have tools for all of those, depending on what the goals are, but the first is accumulating some helping to accumulate some mass, so you can, so you can reach those goals, and I get a kick out of that. It’s, it’s fun to help people, it’s fun to help people reach that, that ultimate, and, and figure out, oh, can we, can we buy that second, can we buy that vacation house or not, or can I stop working two years earlier than I thought. The answer may be yes, the answer may be no, but, but my job is really to empower people by giving them the right information, so that we can say, here are your decision, here your choice, here are your decisions you want to make, here’s what the consequences of those are, and it’s, and you know, whether that means you’re going to, if you’re going to run out of money at 77 that’s not that, that’s, that’s, I have some people like that, and we have to warn and say maybe you should work another year or two, and let’s see what that’s, and we’ll show them what the consequence of that is. I have some people that have that are the other way, they’re scared of spending money,

Rebecca Bockstahler: yeah,

Steve Mesirow: and I say, live a little, live a little. It’s okay to spend, so your kids are gonna get your kids are gonna, your kids are gonna inherit this instead of this. Fine, you know. So, so I’m happy both ways to help them show them what the consequence of what the consequence of their actions are, and help them along the way, and as I said, I got there’s 100 different tools for different situations, whether depending on depending on what you’re trying to achieve in life.

Ron Bockstahler: Awesome, Steve. Thank you so much, appreciate you coming on the show. Want to have you back, because I mean, this is mid year, maybe we come in, you know, before the end of the year. It’s exactly the kind of practical, no-nonsense walkthrough our listeners need, and the reminder that mid-year is a decision point. Now’s the time to call Steve and talk about, hey, let’s start thinking about what I can do this year in 2026 until the end of the year.

Steve Mesirow: Thank you. And I would say, at minimum, with your account, if you bug them, it’s bug them. If you schedule meetings with them in November, is a fantastic time, because you know where your year is going to fall out by November, and there’s still some time to do, there’s still some time to do things. In December, you run into December, you’re running too late. People are going to be on vacation. If you, if you make a good decision, then there might not be time to implement it without making everybody crazy. So that would be my takeaway. But thank the thank to both of you. Absolutely, this was this was fun.

Ron Bockstahler: If you, if today’s conversation got you thinking about your own savings and your own tax bill. I hope you’ll take one idea from Steve and put it to work. You’ll find Steve and his team at Mesro, connect with them at link on LinkedIn, or learn [email protected] We’ll also, Steve will have your information in the show notes. You can reach out to Steve. Steve, will you be able to have a link to your slides by chance that we can throw into the show notes.

Steve Mesirow: Sure, I’ll send it over to you. Thank you.

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