Judge Erika Orr: Women In Law, Parenthood, And Asking For What You Want

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Kirsten Mayfield: Hi, I am Kirsten Mayfield, your co-host here at the 1958 Lawyer,

Ron Bockstahler: and I'm Ron Bockstahler.

Kirsten Mayfield: And today is actually our first podcast. We're very excited. We have the Honorable Judge Erika Orr with us today. She is a district court judge for the Domestic Violence Division for the Circuit Court of Cook County. Erika, you became a judge. I believe you were sworn in December 2018 correct? And you're an African American woman in the legal industry. Tons of experience. You know, you had your own law firm, I believe, for six years, and before that, you worked at various accounting firms for about like 13 years, I believe. We're excited to have you with us today.

Erika Orr: Thank you for having me,

Ron Bockstahler: Erika. The podcast we talk about is about change, and so we want to talk about what you've seen in your years of practice that have really changed the business of law. I know earlier on you mentioned that the electric filing was a big thing. How has that really changed what you're doing today?

Erika Orr: Well, the electric filing. Unfortunately, we had gotten that put in place three years ago, and it allows attorneys to see files from home in their jam jams if they need to, which also is important because it lets attorneys more readily access information about their clients. But the biggest thing that that did is by us getting into an electronic format, it allowed us to be slightly ahead of the game when the coronavirus hit because we had already gone to this digital platform, so that even though people aren't coming into the courthouses as they normally would, they did have access to their files with the clerks, and it was the first step. Because now that COVID has hit, we have started zooming just like we are in this podcast, and it looks like that might be the direction that the courts will start going into, at least for the very near future.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, so I can see where it kind of made some major changes, but I mean, the area of law really hasn't changed a whole lot. So, was that the biggest change we've really seen in the last 50 years?

Erika Orr: Well, it's changed the area of law because when you start talking about digital and what you're accepted, starts becoming a question of what signatures are acceptable with respect to contracts. It comes a question of privacy, especially in the medical realm with respect to HIPAA. So when you start adding electronics, there is a whole new set of questions that have to be answered, and there's a whole new set of precedents that are going to start to be set because these are things we've never had to think about before. So, for example, with digital bond court, who do you let in? So now they're doing it via YouTube. Is that something you want to have? Yes, the public is allowed to come into the courtroom, but really, would you have as much public in the courtroom as has access to YouTube? These are some of the questions you're starting to have to consider.

Ron Bockstahler: That seems to me like it's going to open it up to a whole lot more people to come into a courtroom via virtual.

Erika Orr: Exactly. So, is that what we really want? Is that what we really mean when we say the public is free to enter, especially when you consider the fact that if someone goes into the courtroom, you're not allowed to bring cameras in the courtroom. You're not allowed to record in the courtroom. So it's whoever's in that room's personal snapshot based upon their memory. But if you have YouTube, it's out there.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, it never goes away once it's on the internet.

Erika Orr: No.

Ron Bockstahler: So one thing on you mentioned electronic, digital, or signatures, and I just think that opens the door to fraud. What safeguards do we have there?

Erika Orr: So you have the double verifications on things if it's a truly digital signature. But if you're accepting a scan signature, what some people are doing is asking that the original signature be in blue as opposed to the black that people are used to, so that they can see that it is not something that was digitally input on there, and you're starting to have more verifications. But the problem is you can't see who's on the other side of an email, so fraud definitely. I see that being a problem that we're going to have to figure out how to navigate moving forward in the legal profession, I think this is going. That issue, of course, is more of a civil issue than a criminal one. So that you have to realize when you're dealing with the courts, you're dealing with two different avenues of the justice system. There are certain things that are going to be issue for the civil side that we would never have to think about on the criminal side, and vice versa.

Ron Bockstahler: So, what are you going to do in different in your courtroom? Because you're still going to court, or you will be going to court, correct?

Erika Orr: No, I'm still going to court. So, right now, my room, normally, without all of this going on, I'm in the domestic violence division, but I'm on the criminal side of the domestic violence division in the bond preliminary hearing room. So, my room is slightly different because, of course, I have criminals or alleged defenders in front of me every day. So the biggest thing that is happening that's different in my courtroom is that the defendants are being broadcasted to the courtroom via Zoom. There's no one live in the courtroom except for me and the sheriff, whereas normally I would have myself, five sheriffs, two state's attorneys, two public defenders, someone for pretrial services, and someone from probation services in the courtroom with me. None of those people are in the courtroom. Everyone is there via Zoom. What is also happening is because we right now had to reduce, and that looks like the way we'll be through June 15th. Is we only have two rooms open in most courthouses, and that's for emergency purposes only. So you have a civil room open, and you have a criminal room open. Now, on the criminal side, that means that I'm not just when I go into court dealing with bond hearings and preliminary hearings, I'm also dealing with a criminal court call. Regular calls are just being entered and continued until the next day. The only thing that's being heard right now are emergency motions that are typically put before the bench by the public defenders. For example, motions to reduce bond to try to get someone out because of COVID, or motions for someone to retrieve personal articles because they've been released from custody and hospital orders, things like that are done right now. But all other cases are being entered and continued. So what that means is, come June 15, when we open every day for our regular calls, you're going to have a backlog of cases, and at the 15th, those people still aren't going to be allowed into the building. So everything will be zoomed. So we're honestly trying to figure it out. We don't know how it's going to work.

Ron Bockstahler: Interesting stuff.

Erika Orr: We just know you can't have all those people in the building at the same time. It's a work in progress. We haven't figured out all of the logistics of it, but the bottom line is we had to open courts back up because people have a right to a speedy trial, and since march 17, in the criminal side, it's called term. So term is a set of days that a defendant, well, basically a prosecutor has to prove their case because of speedy trial, and if they don't get everything in trial before that time period elapses, the case is dropped. But term has been told during COVID, so basically because of the public emergency or the pandemic, people's rights have been curtailed a bit. But we can't do that indefinitely, so we have to open the courts back up, and we have to figure it out because you have some people who are sitting in the county jail because they didn't have the money to pay bond, but their term is told right now. So we can't continue to do that.

Ron Bockstahler: We can move on from the current situation. We know there's a lot changing in our current situation, but in the rule of law, you started back

Erika Orr: 1990, 1998.

Ron Bockstahler: From there, you went. You were Ernst & Young, I believe.

Erika Orr: I started off my career at Arthur Andersen, and I was there through the debacle. And from there, went to Deloitte for a year, left Deloitte and was the International Tax Counsel for Aon Corporation for three years. Left there and went to Ernst & Young, and was there through two years after the Great Recession of 2008 and after that the corporate world changed substantially. And at that time, I decided if I was going to work the hours that I was going to work, I'd rather do it for myself than someone else. So I opened up my own shop, hung out my shingle, and started practicing domestic relations.

Kirsten Mayfield: You know that's really interesting to me because in the right post recession, quite a lot of women, especially women of color in the legal industry, they left these large firms in order to go off and do other things, go to like larger corporate companies or go to a solo practice, that kind of thing. And one of the reasons, probably why, is in a survey I saw about 70% of women of color were like the primary income earners for their family, which is like really high if you compare it like to the 80-1% of white men, which is you know like society standard, so it seems like post recession, a lot of people, especially women of color, felt the same way you just described. They felt like they needed to go off and like if I'm going to work for someone, I'm going to work for myself. It's a lot of hours. I want to make sure I'm making the the full amount of money I can in that situation,

Erika Orr: right? It wasn't so much that the recession was just a nudge; it was a push. But honestly, I probably would have been in that direction anyway because of public accounting, because of the hours. So I was regularly on anywhere from a 60 to 80-hour week. But by the time I had left, I had just had my second child, and it just wasn't conducive to the type of parent that I wanted to be. And I think that's why a lot of women leave corporate, not because you know. Granted, we have a tendency to not make the same amount of money for the same work. That's an issue, but that's not why people leave. People leave because the higher you go up in corporate America, the more hours they're required of you, and it's kind of hard to reconcile that against being a parent.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, and a woman's prime time, I guess, is around the exact same time that you would be trying to develop your career in that way. So they kind of they don't work together. It seems harmoniously, right?

Ron Bockstahler: So what can we do to change that? How can a woman have a career and a family.

Erika Orr: I don't know. Jokingly, I would say that she needs a wife. That's what I used to always tell the partners of my offices. I was like, I need one of those wives that you had.

Ron Bockstahler: Do you feel as a woman you were ever held back in your legal practice,

Erika Orr: so the big discussion right now, right, for women is in the '80s, right? We were sold this concept that you could have it all, right? This whole notion of multitasking, and because you can multitask, you can have it all. And subsequently, recently, there have been a lot of studies that show that you know multitasking really doesn't exist. You just have a whole bunch of things on your desk, but you still do one thing at a time, right? And there are a lot of studies out there that are showing that women are having it all, and that they're having a career, they're having a family, they're having all these things, but they're not maximizing their bliss in any one area. I think a lot of women now, and I think millennials are going to really start pushing the issue with this because that particular generation seems really focused on quality of life, and I think you're going to start maybe seeing a shift in what it requires. So to answer your question, Ron, what do we do about that? Perhaps we go to a more European model, right? European women don't have these problems. I think people in the United States in general have a tendency to live to work instead of working to live. So when you have someone who has a child in a European model, they get a longer maternity leave, so they have time to recover. They don't have child care concerns because there is child care provided. So when you start having these things, it makes it a lot easier for women to maximize their intellectual capabilities while still being the parent that they want to be. And also, when you look at the European model, they have more time off. So, okay, I can work 80 hours, but if I'm getting four to six weeks of vacation, you can have that quality time with your family, and that's not typically how the American model is set up. So we're going to have to, at some point, assess what our value system is around working family. I don't know that there's a silver bullet for it.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, that's a great point, especially because I believe for anyone who's listening here that in the OECD, which is like 40-one major countries, U.S. is the only one who doesn't have any like governmental paid leave for maternity, paternity at all for anyone. The only one out of 40-one countries who doesn't even give a single week.

Erika Orr: There's a cost factor to it, but cost really is associated with whatever your value system is. It's not an expensive proposition if certain things are important to you. So we, as a country, are going to have to make a determination about what it is we want. And I have a feeling that that question is going to be put to us sooner rather than later, because right now you're starting to have more women who are getting secondary education and more women who are the thought leaders in the workforce. So it's going to have to become a question because, of course, they're the ones who give birth.

Ron Bockstahler: You and I have never had this conversation, but do you fall behind when you take that time off? Is that why there's a pay gap between men and women in legal?

Erika Orr: No, there's a pay gap because you start off with a pay gap.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, so right out of the gate,

Erika Orr: right out the gates, you start off with a pay gap. You know, I was fortunate in that I will say this: I didn't have as much pay gap as some of my peers because I was not afraid to ask for the money. Men have a tendency when an offer is made to counter it when they are offered a job. Hey, you know, Ron, we like you a lot. You're good candidate. We're your top guy. We want to bring you on, and we're offering 80. And guys have a tendency to say, "Oh, I'm, you know, that's great. Sounds like a great place to be. But I was thinking more 90, right? And women don't have a tendency to do that.

Ron Bockstahler: So that's a man woman thing.

Erika Orr: So it's partly that it's not. It's not necessarily. All gender and inequity. Don't get me wrong. Some of it is just cultural.

Kirsten Mayfield: Do you have any ideas of how we can like encourage women to be that more outspoken and more vocal and like ask for what they want? You know, do you see that kind of initiative taking place?

Erika Orr: I think part of it is making sure women know that they can make the ask. Don't be afraid to make the ask.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, like you only you don't get what you you don't ask for, right? There's a quote out there about that. Yeah,

Erika Orr: yeah. Close mouths don't get fed.

Kirsten Mayfield: There we go. There you got it right on hand.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, I'm doing my part. The four girls in the box dollar household have no problem asking and counter offering.

Erika Orr: Right, exactly.

Ron Bockstahler: You know, Erika, that could be a generational thing.

Erika Orr: That could be it. A large part of it, yeah, that's a large part of it. I think you know, even as a child, I was empowered to speak my piece, and depending on the family dynamics, you have a lot of women who don't feel that way. You still have a lot of women who are the first. You know, it's it's kind of like a lot of minority families, the same is true for a lot of women. So, you know, they're not trying to shake the boat. And then you also have a lot of women who aren't trying to shake their boat, which I think this is more prevalent now than when women first started entering the workforce. And that, well, maybe not, because when women first started entering the workforce, a lot of it was related to war, so they had no choice, but now you have a lot more single parents who have other factors besides themselves to consider. Maybe a six and one half that doesn't other. You know, I'm I'm the only parent working, so I got to make this money, or I'm the only parent working, so I need to make more money. I I don't know the answer to that. I guess is what I'm saying.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, it's a complex societal thing. I mean, we gotta. There's a lot of ends to it, but I think starting with your family, like you said, starting with the community, that's the best way to make any social change. Do you see like fellow attorneys, like in that younger millennial group that you you mentioned, starting to be kind of like you, and they're more ballsy, for lack of a better word, about asking for this kind of stuff.

Erika Orr: Absolutely, the millennials-you know-that's a love-hate relationship. They are definitely more aggressive and definitely more sure of what they want. But on the flip side, you know, when I was still in corporate and I I was on the interviewing side and and helping HR make hiring decisions, to a certain extent, I would be put off by some of the questions that were asked before you get an offer. You're asking me about flex time. What? You don't even have a job yet. What do you mean?

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, my time off right right now. What's going on? Been out of

Erika Orr: flight yet? What are you talking about? But I think with millennials, there are a lot of things that are positives. I think millennials are more aware of their values. Sometimes they're a little over aware of their values, depending on how much of a hovering parent perhaps they had and who you know what they've been always told. Some of them are a little overzealous with their thoughts about their achievements, but I think they at least aren't afraid to put them out there. On the same token, I think with millennials, they're more aware of inequities, right? So as some of these millennials get into positions of power and positions of being decision makers, I hope that some of these gender inequity issues and racial inequity issues start to dissolve because they don't see the world the same way that their predecessors do. But you always have to remember when you're talking about gender and race and religion and you know there's always that one factor that kind of sometimes changes people's values and it's money.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah.

Erika Orr: So that'll be the question. That's the thing we see. If they stick with some of the things that they're doing now, I think we're going in the right direction. But the green-eyed monster sometimes shows its face, so we'll see.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, that's going to be interesting. A couple last things I want to talk about. Is there one thing in law that you would like to see change that hasn't really come around yet?

Erika Orr: I would like to see, and this is no shade to my peers. I would like to see people, and this is a criminal thing, and it it bothers me, and maybe I see this space differently because I didn't practice in this area. I need people to take off whatever hat they were wearing as an attorney when they get on the bench. Understand that when you get on the bench, if you are a prosecutor, you're no longer prosecuting anymore. When you get on the bench, if you are a public defender, you're not a voice for the people anymore. That's not your job anymore. So that's the first thing. The second thing that I would like to see happen in the law, and it's something that's happened before. I would like to see people being more prepared when they come into the. Think you have a lot of people who are winging it. That's not in the best interest of their client or clients. So I would like to see that happen, and I would like to see ultimately the law applied to everyone the same, regardless of your social economic position, of your more racial demographic, of your religious demographic, and that's gonna take some time because that's not an intellectual situation, right? That's a cultural one. So we still have a lot of work to do with respect to that. But overall, I actually believe the legal system that we have that was established is genius. It's it's genius, and it works when it's done the way it was intended to do. It's just when people fiddle with it, or they have agendas associated with it that it becomes problematic.

Ron Bockstahler: You opened the door, and you know I wouldn't let you get off this interview without talking about white privilege.

Erika Orr: I know.

Ron Bockstahler: So I'm white, and I know I have white privilege. I just didn't really always understand what that was. Can you talk to it a little bit from your perspective?

Erika Orr: Oh no, we just had one yesterday. We had a Karen. Karen called the police on somebody in Central Park, as they, you know, the colloquialism goes. So you had a woman who was walking her dog in Central Park, not on a leash, a white woman, and was asked by a black man who was a bird watcher to please leash her dog, and she went ballistic. He taped her, and she says to him, "I'm going to call the police and tell them a black man is attacking me and my dog.

Kirsten Mayfield: Alicia,

Erika Orr: and she did it. And when you get off this podcast, look it up. And of course, you know people are forgetting we have social media now. So she's on blast, and she worked for a big finance company in New York, and apparently lost her dog and a job. But the issue is when you're coming to that. I mean, you have people, you know, shooting people in their their own homes, talking about they accidentally walked in their homes, and a guy was just killed yesterday in Minnesota by police putting their foot on his neck and basically choked him out. I mean, these things are happening frequently, so I think that with respect to your question, I don't know that we can change people per se, but we can change how we deal with it. So, for example, the situation in New York, she absolutely should have been charged with filing a false report. It's proven. It's on video. You know, those are things how we can change it. And Ron, to your question, I'm actually reading a book right now called White Fragility. It's by Robin DiAngelo, and the biggest thing is I think that as much as I can be asked these questions as an African American woman, we have gotten to the state where we need more people like you to dive deep and not be afraid to ask the questions of themselves, because I cannot change it. It's going to take my white allies, right, to help me change it. Because I'm not in the room when certain jokes are told. I'm not at your house if a relative says something that makes you feel uncomfortable. So it's going to be my allies who have to say to their friends and their relatives, "Hey, you know what? I'm not going. I don't like it. It's not cool. And in my presence, you're going to have to not. And until we have that happen, there are certain things that are going to continue to happen, and we just have to make sure we have more diversity on the bench and in our attorneys and the like to make sure that we can catch things after they happen, since we can't catch them before they happen. Does that make sense?

Ron Bockstahler: Absolutely, and very well put, Judge Orr. I can't thank you enough for joining us today. It's been wonderful. It's always great talking to you, getting your perspective and trying to learn more what I can do to make it a better world.

Erika Orr: Well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to have been your first interviewee for your podcast series, and I wish you guys tremendous success.

Kirsten Mayfield: Thank you so much.

Ron Bockstahler: Thank you. You know we couldn't ask for a better first interview. Everyone else is going to be the bar set pretty high, so thanks for joining us today. We really appreciate

Kirsten Mayfield: it. Yes, thank you, Erika.

Erika Orr: All right, bye bye.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to AmataOffices.com. All the links are also available in show notes.