Faye Gelb: Empowering Women in Law

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. All right, welcome to another show, The 1958 Lawyer. I am Ron Bockstahler, your co-host,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I am Kirsten Mayfield, and we have with us today Faye Gelb. Faye is the founder of Her Legal Global, which just started in May 2020. Her Legal Global is an online private community for women in law. It's the only one that is in both Canada and the U.S. Faye is Canadian, and it believes in supporting women throughout their career. Helps giving them resources and support so that they can create the career in law that they would love. Faye, thank you for joining us today.

Faye Gelb: Thank you for having me. It's a delight.

Kirsten Mayfield: I have to just jump in really quick into this two years of drama studies that you had. How are you utilizing those skills these days? Are you putting on theater performances at home, perhaps?

Faye Gelb: I'd love to, but really, what I'm doing with it is using it in my podcasting, and also I have tried to start out with YouTube videos, but that's a bit of a work in progress, so I'm not quite there yet. I started out in drama because I initially really felt that that's what I wanted to do, and then after two years, I've kind of completely lost my enthusiasm for it. Switched into psychology, found that it was very academic and not very creative. The acting was much more creative, but not academic enough. So then I decided I would go into law. I had wanted to be a lawyer when I was, you know, a young teen, and then I'd switched out of it. So eventually, I did make my way to law school and became a lawyer.

Kirsten Mayfield: Do you think law is that good blend that you were looking for in creative and academic?

Faye Gelb: I did at first. I was a litigator. It involved a certain amount of drama and a certain amount of acting, I guess you could say. But after a while, I found that it it really did help with you know who I wanted to be as a person and be able to encapsulate more of the whole picture. So it was a good blend.

Ron Bockstahler: So today we're going to really I think focus on women in law, and we want to take us back to your career. I think you were at the prosecutor's office at the British the BC.

Faye Gelb: The Ministry of Attorney General. Yes, I was with the Ministry of Attorney General in British Columbia for about nine years, and I had a number of different roles when I was with them. So I started out as a prosecutor in our province. We also are responsible for approving charges, so the police do that in a number of jurisdictions. But in British Columbia, the Crown actually decide what the charges will be. So I did that for a little bit. I did special prosecutions. I did special projects at our headquarters. It was a lot of different roles, and it was very interesting, very exciting.

Ron Bockstahler: But you lost that position when your boss retired.

Faye Gelb: Well, what ended up happening was I did a thing that I think a lot of women in in law do, which is I thought that my work would advocate for me. So I was a very hard worker. I had a lot of productivity, put out a lot of work material, and then what ended up happening was, I had worked under one man and he ended up retiring. And at the same time, it was right at the same time that we were going to have a merit category, which when you work for the government is really the only way to get more money. And it turned out to be a career-limiting move on my part, not to network and not to have had a bigger source of, you know, recognition of my work. So when he retired, my job retired too, and I was put back as a lying crown. And at that point, I decided that I was going to retire from the ministry because I didn't want to be a lying crown with a number of children, so that's what ended up happening.

Ron Bockstahler: Can you, for myself and our listeners, explain what a line crown

Faye Gelb: is? A line crown is basically, yeah, the jargon, right? Yeah, that line crown just means you're on the line in court. You're in court, a litigator. Oh, okay, cool.

Ron Bockstahler: So then you started that second career in 1995 in management, and and how did that turn out for you?

Faye Gelb: Fine, fine. I I like combining a number of different positions in life. I think it's what we all end up doing. If I could go back, though, I think I would have been much more proact. And strategic about the development of my career, and I would have planned for some of the things that I didn't really plan for. And I'll just give you an example. One of the things that happened to me was, you know, on a personal note, I come from a background where I thought I would be able to choose my roles, and you know, as a woman growing up, you're you're taught that you can have it all, and I really thought that that's what I would do. So when it came to the the point of starting a family, I had thought a long time that I wouldn't have one. But in my background is a story that's quite different, which is that at the age of three, I was apprehended and placed into another family, so I actually ended up in an adopted family and grew up there. And I didn't really realize the impact of that on me until later on in life when I had my own children. And what ended up happening is it became very difficult for me to leave them because I had never had a biological relative until that point, and it was just something that really changed my life. So even though I thought I could have it all, I ended up in a position where I didn't want to make the choice of having it in that regard. And I would have worked part time, but it really wasn't available to me at that point, so I ended up staying at home, and I'm not a stay-at-home person. I really don't like messes, don't like noise. I'm noise sensitive, hate cooking, not really good with the baby talk. So it was quite a switch for me, and the reason I bring that up is I think a lot of people think that it's just going to go long, you know, smooth in life, and we're going to get those choices we think we're going to have, but we don't really know ourselves. And I didn't really know that about myself. So one of the things that I advocate is that all women, in fact, in fact, anybody in law should really get to know themselves as they go through their career, so they can make the strategic choices that are right for them.

Ron Bockstahler: So I want real quick. I wanna I wanna take one minute just to read what you have posted on your LinkedIn page under your management from 1995 to present. So for 25 years, I spent years training, inspiring, managing, and directing a gifted group of children who somewhat resemble me to achieve their dreams, took significant direction from just about everyone on this role. Selectively ignored many, showed extreme diligence, and worked long hours, including nights and weekends. I have acquired numerous skills, including first aid, multitasking, chef for numerous diets, chauffeur, cyber tracking, the ability to look interested during the most mundane topics, advocacy when dealing with non-sympathetic outside influence and negotiation between members. Now that is brilliant.

Faye Gelb: Thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: I think that really is a testament of what women in the in the professional world and specifically in the legal community have to take time to to do and learn those skills and spend time with their children and I think it adversely affects them. So you know, with that, chat about what you're doing with her legal global and how you're making a difference for women in the legal industry.

Faye Gelb: Well, what the reason I developed for Legal Global is because when I started back in March this year, I went on to LinkedIn to network and I started talking to women at that stage, and I learned a lot about what they were going through and what they were facing, and I realize that in the last almost 30 years since I was called, not a lot has changed. They face the same challenges, you know how we interact and communicate, how we get positions, how we get ahead, what our pay is-all those different things that women often have raised in the past. They continue to raise, and I really thought, what is it? Why can't we have a better way? Why can't there be something that's changing this narrative? Why is it the same old same after this many years? Like we have all these different initiatives, why isn't something really cracked open this egg? So I looked around at what is available, and I felt that we are often really controlled by social media. Like for example, on LinkedIn or Facebook or that type of thing, you're controlled by the algorithm, how you interact. It's not a place where you can really be yourself. The other thing that I noticed is that women really have a lot of wisdom and experience. And as you just read from growing, you know, raising my children, you gain a lot no matter where you are in life and what you are doing, no matter who she is or what stage of career she is at. A woman brings a lot to the table, but we. Don't access that wisdom and information because of the types of organizations that we've set up, and so when I looked around, I saw that we had geographic boundaries. You know, it's it's this association in Ontario or New York or wherever it is, but it's geographically bound, or it's bound by the type of law. So, if you're practicing in personal injury, you, your colleagues are personal injury lawyers, and that's you know your organizations. It can also be the type of firm you can be in big law versus you know the smaller places, or a sole entrepreneur is not going to necessarily hang out with somebody from big law. The other thing I notice is that the stage of career we have a hierarchy in law. It's a little bit like the military. So you know, once you get to a certain stage, it's not like you're going to hang out with the first year associate. But I think we lose something when we don't have access to each other. So what I wanted to do was get rid of those boundaries and have a place where women can connect with each other, all stages of career, all types of law, all types of firms, and also in the U.S. and Canada, because the types of issues that I'm talking about in my community transcend the type of you know law. We're not talking about how to practice law. We're talking about how to navigate the practice of law, and that's a different question.

Kirsten Mayfield: There's a theme in everything that we've spoken about so far. We've talked about when you you spoke on your history, you worked hard and you thought you'd be seen. You put this management home parent position on LinkedIn because you felt you weren't being seen for those 25 years and for that work you've put in, and now you're kind of bringing another element to it, where we're not really seeing one another woman to woman either, and so you're kind of breaking down those barriers. Are you finding that it's easy, or what are some of the hurdles that you're coming across in breaking down the being seen barrier?

Faye Gelb: I think it's definitely like a startup. A startup has, you know, you can talk about the hockey stick where there's a certain level of adoption. You go along, and then all of a sudden it goes up. Well, what happens when you're trying to bring any anything innovative into law? There's a certain mindset because people approach law a certain way. So when women join this community, they do interact with each other from all stages of career, and it's an amazing, incredible thing. But at the same time, it takes a little bit of education to get people to realize that this type of community exists and what it can bring to the table, because when I created the community, I didn't want it to just be a social network where we hang out. That's very important, and that's an important aspect. But there's another big missing piece, and that is we don't have certain skills. Over and over again, there's certain issues like the pay equity, so how do we really impact that? How do we change that? And we can sit here and we can wait for the firms to implement, you know, their different types of responses to that and diversity and inclusion initiatives. But at the other side of things, we have a responsibility to take charge and go ahead with how we want to do this, and how can we do that? So I think one of the most important ways that we can do anything in law is to do it from within. So if you want to have pay equity, start negotiating from the beginning. So how do you do that? If you're if you're timid or you've never been taught, where do you get those skills? Who's going to teach you? So part of what I am doing with this community is I interview experts for my podcast, and those experts all provide a skill. We don't just chat. We're not there hanging out. I don't go into a ton about you know fun things they do in their lives. We talk about a skill because they're an expert. So, what can they tell us about a particular way of doing things? So, for example, we talked about communication and how to have courageous conversations. So, right away, there's a skill that you can implement to start having those difficult conversations, so you can begin to start to get things like pay equity. So that's an example of how we can implement skills into a different type of community.

Kirsten Mayfield: It kind of sounds like a TEDx.

Ron Bockstahler: You know, I'm just saying. You remember we had Judge Erica Orr on the on the show, and her biggest thing was women need to to ask. They got to negotiate up front because pay inequality actually starts from the day you start your job. Because usually women do not negotiate up front, where men it's unnatural that they will.

Faye Gelb: That's very true. We had a podcast on the confidence gap. And the research that Bina Stock brought to our podcast exactly confirms what you just said, which is that it's a very small percentage of women that will actually negotiate that first pay. And when you don't negotiate your first pay, you are forever behind. You never catch up, and even when you are at a more even keel at the associate level, the pay disparity increases as you go up over time. So it is exceedingly important to be empowered in your legal journey from the beginning as much as possible. And how do you do that? By having mentors, by having support, and having access to skills and wisdom that will help you navigate that where you wouldn't be able to do it on your own. See, I did it on my own, and some parts worked and some parts didn't. So, what I'm trying to do is take my wisdom of almost 30 years of being, you know, from when I was called and all my other life experience, bring that to the table and incorporate other things. So, for example, often women are seen as they get older as not valuable in our society. So, what we do in our community is we have what are called elite mentors. These are women who have 30 years plus of being called, so whether they're still in law or not, they're part of an elite mentoring, and these women provide their support and their information to women in the community when you join. So you can access them, and it's an incredible source of information, a wealth of wisdom that you would not have otherwise. That can guide you as you go through those different steps. It's a lot different than a formal mentoring program.

Kirsten Mayfield: I want to go back to your comment previously. You said there were some things that you look back on. You're going, you went that worked, and some that didn't. Could you give us an example in each category?

Faye Gelb: Well, it definitely worked to go to the crown office and go into the headquarters and be able to do the types of projects. I really learned a lot about myself, and I was able to do big picture things. One of the reasons that I talk about getting to know yourself is that I started out. I wanted to be a litigator. That's my drama background, and that's what I like to do. And I thought I would be really good at it, and quite frankly, I did it all through law school, and I did competitions. So when I got out, I thought this would be a perfect fit for me, but I discovered that it wasn't a perfect fit for me because I'm a big picture person, and when I got into the court system, and I had to deal with people whose lives were really unhappy and really messy and really painful, and all I could do was make that one day of their lives a little bit better. It wasn't enough for me, and I really wanted to change the system. I didn't want them to be coming to court and having to deal with like one part of another painful day, so that was an example of if I'd known I was a big picture person, I don't think I would have chose litigation. So on the other side, it did work for me to be able to go to headquarters and do the province-wide project that I did because that was a big picture kind of thing, and I really enjoyed it. Two year project, learned all kinds of different skills, and implemented a complete change of our business offices over 40 offices in a two year time period. So that was something that worked. But again, you really have to know yourself.

Kirsten Mayfield: I have a question because I'm a woman at the disadvantage here, and you know I've talked to a lot of people and and my my girlfriends and there's an idea too of when you're on this journey of figuring out what you're doing and what you're you you figure it out just like you did where you start doing something you go this isn't it but a lot of people are frightened to start over because then you see like a pay cut. You have to go back down to the bottom. So if you're starting at a pay cut and then you work your way a little bit higher and you make a little bit more money and you're not happy and then you have to go back down to another pay cut in order to start again. I mean, how do you guide someone on that?

Faye Gelb: I think there's a lot of different things that you can look at because a person is a complete picture, and law is only one aspect of your life. So if you bring into that picture everything about you, then you will have a much better idea how you can navigate where you are in law. Does that mean you lessen the amount of law that you practice. Do you switch the track? Do you do the the track in a different way? Do job share? Do you mentor somebody? Do you take on extra curricular type of things that give you more satisfaction? So the law, you maintain it, but it's not the focus anymore. There's all kinds of different options, but you have to work with somebody in order to do that. I think in order to get that clarity, and that's another problem. I think that lawyers have is that they think that law school is it. You know, I've got the education, and other than those you know nasty CPD credits that I got to keep up with, you know. I'm not doing any more of that kind of stuff, and it's it's it's an attitude I think that doesn't do us any good. We really need to have that support in ongoing training, and I think it really takes a lifetime to really get to know who you are and your strengths and your skills. And if you're working with somebody, then you can really get to the bottom of how you can design a life that you love instead of just having one that happens. And when you asked me before about what worked and what didn't, I didn't. I don't think I planned enough. I think I followed the traditional, oh, you know, I'll just become an associate, and then you know, I'll. And for me, it was like in the crowns, so it was the government. But you know, I'll just go up here and I'll get a merit category, and life will be grand, and it'll all be predictable. And it's not like that in real life. You really have to continually put effort into who you are and where you're going.

Ron Bockstahler: So it sounds like we have to do some self-awareness when we're young, maybe in law or even before law school, but throughout law school, and then when you get out, is her legal global really focused more around younger attorneys when they're coming out of law school?

Faye Gelb: No,

Ron Bockstahler: because it seems no okay.

Faye Gelb: No, it's really meant to be for everybody, and that's why we have the elite mentors. So even a partner joining will feel that she has somebody that she can talk to because, you know, most partners are in 15 or even less to you know 20 plus years, and they still can go to these mentors and know that there is a woman that has more experience and just somebody they can look up to that they can ask questions. They can give back, and also in the community, quite frankly, because you can post questions, you can ask questions. You get to tap into that wisdom from other women who may not be what you might first think of as a mentor, but can give you valuable information. For example, we have a woman in our community, that started law school just now, and she's in her 40s. She brings a wealth of you know life experience to that process. We also have people that have moved from one jurisdiction to another, or trained in a different jurisdiction and moved. And those those women show a tremendous amount of resilience and determination, because it's very hard to start over again when you've already, you know, achieved a certain recognition and a certain prestige, a certain amount of income, like you were talking about before. So it's very hard. But those women in a normal setting would not be looked at twice because they are one or two year call in the new jurisdiction.

Ron Bockstahler: Changing gears a little bit, let's talk about why women leave law and what we can do to maybe stem that tide.

Faye Gelb: Well, I think women leave law for one real reason, and that is it stops meeting their needs, and you can define those needs in a number of different ways. Sharon Rowan, a lawyer from Atlanta, had a film balancing the scales, which she took two decades to make, and she cited three reasons why women leave law, and it comes down to work-life balance, unconscious bias, and the pay gap, and you can define those in a number of different ways. But in reality, I think what happens is that we simply can't make it work for ourselves anymore. We might have pushed through. For a lot of people, I think what happens is because they don't really know who they are, and they just fall into that trap of following, you know, the associate to the partner track. As they begin to go in through law, they kind of shove themselves through. So law school wasn't great, but okay, I'm getting through. Then I've got to that next stage. Oh, okay. Well, I can't give up now. I look at all that debt I just got. So you know, I'm going to be an associate, and then it's like, well, I got to slog through because they're pushing me, and I, you know, I, I've got to get to the next stage. And then, as they get to a certain stage, they say, okay, well, now I've invested a certain amount, so I'm just going to stick with it. And after a while, they get to about 10 years, and they just can't stuff it down anymore. And it's they're unhappy; they're very unhappy. They've been unhappy all the way through, but it was manageable. And then you throw in children and having children and that type of thing into it, and it's just like, I'm not, I'm out of here.

Ron Bockstahler: So how do how do we balance the different organizations that are available to us? You got the local, national association, bar association. Different ethnic organizations that are out there, and and tying it into also her legal global. What are we going to get that's different? I mean, the mentoring is huge, and I think that's a big difference for most. But you know, how do we balance? Do we need to be in multiple organizations first? And what's different about her legal versus maybe a local bar association.

Faye Gelb: I think you need to be in a number of different organizations in order to network successfully, but each one has a different need, like a meets a different need. And I think her legal global is a place for you to get the skills that empowers your career when you belong to an association or a type of like, for example, NAWL, like a National Association of Women in Law. All those different organizations have their own agenda. They have their own purpose and their mission. And you have to decide if that works for you. I don't think we can say that you have to belong to one organization over another, but you do have to have the support that you need in order to be successful in law. So whatever type of organization creates that for you, then that's the right choice for you. I think her legal global is the right choice for a lot of women because of what I learned about no change in the system, and I believe that that change has to come first and foremost from within. We need to be strategic, proactive, and innovative in how we go about our careers, so that we can create the career we want and not just have one that happens to us.

Ron Bockstahler: So her legal global is a private network. What can someone that's going to participate expect, and how do they get involved? The

Faye Gelb: way to get involved is to just sign up at herlegalglobal.com. Once you join the community, we have a roadmap to empowerment, which is we have on Mondays out goes a podcast, and on that podcast is the skill that we talk about on Tuesday? We have a challenge around that, and on that, and then what we do is we have community type of engagement conversations over the the week. So questions, posts, that kind of thing. But the main roadmap is the podcast, the challenge, and on Fridays we talk about our wins, so wins can be anything that you've done that week related to the podcast. It can be related to some success that you've had, because one of the things that's really fundamental is that we need to define success for ourselves. And with law, it becomes a big picture success. Always, most people see success in law as getting into law school, graduating law school, getting your first job, you know, getting a certain pay rate, making a certain position in the firm. But every day we have success, and if we only relate our achievements to these big goals, then it sets us up for perfectionism and to be crushed when things don't go, so we don't pass the bar. What do we do now? Or we didn't get that position. Or for like my own experience, I didn't get that merit category. So how do I rebuild? Because I didn't have somebody to advocate for me, and I was told, you know, put yourself into the next stage to to get it the next time. So could I rebuild and do that? So these are all kinds of questions. But if I don't have any resilience because I haven't built myself up as I go through this process, I've been a perfectionist, a workaholic. I've been so dedicated to showing that I can do the work that I work 12 hours a day and I never do any self care. What's left of me, and will I really have anything when I get to the top?

Kirsten Mayfield: It seems like another half of this is embracing failures as you go along too. Do you guys discuss that?

Faye Gelb: Absolutely, because failures are not really failures. They they're a feature, not a bug. So we need to look at failures as something that are part and parcel of our journey in life and how we learn the best. So when we do something and it doesn't work out, it will work out at some point. But if we take to heart, you know, the message that, oh, I didn't get this exactly like I thought it should be. I have an expectation. That expectation sets us up to be completely depressed and downtrodden. And what we need to do is look at a re reorganizing our thoughts and doing a mind shift to have a better definition of success and how we go forward. So, as you can see, what we do a lot of in her legal global is a type of coaching, support, mentoring, and skills. Because with all of these combined, you are in a much better position to go forward with your career, no matter where it's going to take you. Because careers don't have to be linear; they don't have to be. I have to do this by a certain date. If they're defined by you and how you want to be successful, then you are empowered and energized. So, when you were asking that question earlier about how can we sort this out for these people, you know, they kind of like, do I step back? Do I not? One of the key questions, and I can give this to you as something that will help everybody, is to say, does this energize me? So, if you picture yourself five years from now sitting at your desk doing the same work, and you just kind of shrivel up, you know that this is not going to be for you. That you have to do something about it, and it can be small steps, it can be big steps, but you take charge. And when we take charge, then we are in a much more empowered place. And I believe that we will have much greater joy in our process. And then we won't see women leaving law. We'll see women choosing the types of laws and the types of practices that give them that happiness and that contentment because it's a holistic view of who they really are. They're not leaving behind the child component. They're not leaving behind what other component is essential to their identity. They're bringing it into the whole aspect of it.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, Faye, that's some of the best wisdom I've heard on our show so far. Amazing, thank you. I would actually go on the line and say some of the men listeners can probably take and use that wisdom also.

Faye Gelb: Thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: We talk about the change in the business of law. What have you seen in this past 12 months that maybe some technology changes in law that maybe could women can benefit from.

Faye Gelb: Well, one of the things that Allison Henderson just said on that podcast that I had with her about Zooming and how to do it effectively was that Zoom is actually better for women because when we are on Zoom, the part of our bodies that show the the upper part, women use a lot more of that in their their natural communication, and I think that she's just dead on right about how we can use this effectively to do all kinds of things. It levels the playing field. We're no longer in a boardroom. We're all on Zoom, so now we're all equal, and we can use that an effective way to get ourselves into a position of power in our organization by using it as a tool that it's meant to be. So instead of seeing it as pajamas on the bottom, which I don't think really helps us, is to look at it more like, "Wow, this is a new tool. How can I use it to really up the ante in terms of getting myself positioned to be where I want to be in this firm? How can I use this to improve my positioning, my pay, etc. So that's that's an example. Zoom is a very important one. I also think it allows women to do things like mediations over Zoom, court appearances over Zoom, all those kind of things. I think also allow us to take that advantage of Zoom and use it more effectively. I also think that we're doing more networking online, which is really good for people like me, a natural introvert, because I can kind of pull it together for you know the Zoom, and then I can relax again. So that works really great for me because I never could do that networking party thing. So that's another example of I think where it's been a a big bonus,

Kirsten Mayfield: and it's faster to get to that cup of tea on the couch after a Zoom meeting versus you know another commute, 30 minutes. You're a little buzz. You're like, oh, this sucks.

Faye Gelb: Yeah, exactly.

Ron Bockstahler: So I I know people can they can go check out your podcast with Allison at your LinkedIn page.

Faye Gelb: Yes,

Ron Bockstahler: because that's one because most of your stuff in the past has been to only available to your private network. You're starting to make some of those available to people outside the network.

Faye Gelb: That's right. So right now, all my podcasts are only on SoundCloud under FE dash Gel G E L B. I will be putting them up though on different RSS feeds. So I'm hoping to have them on iTunes soon and having all of them available. I have 20-four podcasts at this point, and like I said, they're all related to types of skills. So, for example, I have lawyers creating online sales funnels, strategies for lawyers to manage their finances, how to get their dream their dream life using time time management in a whole new way, so you can see they're they're all focused on giving you something, so that when you walk away from a podcast, if you implement even a portion of what's been talked about, then you will be able to increase some aspect of your toolbox to be able to use it to empower yourself as you go forward.

Ron Bockstahler: So let's jump right into foundation building blocks. You know what? What? What do you see are required foundation building blocks for a successful legal career?

Faye Gelb: In terms of the foundation blocks, I see that are the most important is what I've been talking about throughout our podcast today, which is knowing yourself. And I think that there's about at least six components to that, and that includes your personality, what I call the joy meter, your type of work, risk taking, the type of management style, and your mental health. So just to go through that a little bit, you have to really know yourself. Like I talked about, I was a big picture person and didn't have a clue, so it's always good to know these things earlier. And the other thing, for example, is how do you cope with stress? Law is a very stressful profession, and some parts of it are even worse than others. So if you're not somebody that copes well with stress, then you really need to consider that as you go into it, and do you like being told what to do? Some people really hate it, so that's another part about really getting to know yourself. We have the obvious, like introverted and extroverted, but sometimes people are a combination of both and don't realize it. There's those kind of things, so that's your personality. The joy meter is what I talked a little bit about before, which is what energizes you, what makes you happy, where do you like to live. People don't ever consider this, but if you want to practice big law, and you're a country person, this is not a good fit. So there's you know some very obvious things that people don't think about. I've talked to a number of women, and they're shocked when I ask them that question, and they go, "Hey, wait a minute! I actually like living in the country. So that's an example of where your joy meter is really a foundational block to how you're going to navigate your legal career successfully and happily, the type of work is also very important. Like, how do you do your best work? Whether you thrive on those big projects or like little projects, whether you want to have the same client forever or you'd be happy to get rid of them after like a case by case basis quickly, that kind of thing. I also think that it's important to know about your risk taking. If you're not comfortable taking risks, that's really important to know as you go into the practice of law. Where will you be best suited to be? Is it something very predictable, very steady, very you know similar all the time, or is it something where if you're not up on the law, it can be a little bit nerve-wracking? So you have to know all about that. The type of management style is very important too, because often lawyers are not taught that this is a business. In fact, I don't think they're ever taught it's a business, and they come out and they're all shocked. Oh my goodness, I got to run this office! Like what the heck? So you know, and they may not be comfortable doing it. No one's ever told them how to delegate work. They might not have a clue how to treat somebody who's you know, on a like a staff member or somebody that they're trying to train. So you need to know about those things as you go forward, because if you're trying to position yourself in a particular firm or in a particular way, you really need to know that. I also think that a crucial, crucial aspect of being a lawyer, which is just beginning to be talked about, is mental health. Because if your mental health has not been great when you started law school, it's not going to go uphill, so you really need to put that time and energy into getting your mental health supported, whatever that means. Whether that's you know through therapy or medication or just taking the time to really do the process in a way that makes sense to you and doesn't break you down, because certain types of practices and certain types of way of going through law school can really break a person down if they're not in shape when they started. So I think if you combine all of those as a foundational building block for a career in law, then no matter what area you choose and type a law or where you practice, you'll have set yourself up for success because you'll have really considered what you want, how you want it, where you want it, and what you're going to be doing for the next parts of your life. You're not going to just let it happen and it'll be all okay because it might not be.

Kirsten Mayfield: So one of the things that I like to do, and just looking into any corporation or organization, is I look at you know all the parts, and I notice that you have your legal board. You've got a woman who runs Law Flex, which is an ALSP, which is a new term in law these days, and then you've got Gig Law, and then your husband. If I'm not mistaken. David is his name.

Faye Gelb: Daniel.

Kirsten Mayfield: Daniel, so close. He runs a law firm, but what he does is he helps attorneys, other attorneys who you know they get that overflow of work and they need one person to help them in. So you've kind of surrounded yourself with what I would what I would call like the new face of law. Do you find that educating women on these other concepts and other avenues is just as important for what you're doing as all of the mental health and coaching.

Faye Gelb: Definitely, but I think that is more about how you practice. So that's kind of once you know yourself and you know what you are and who you are, then you can decide how you want to practice, and innovative law practices, I think, are crucial. For example, you know, when a woman moves to Canada, and she has come from a different jurisdiction, she brings with her all that experience, but she's not necessarily welcomed with open arms into the Canadian legal scene because her lack of Canadian experience may be seen as a detriment. So in my mind, a woman like that who has that background, and this can apply to men, it can apply in the United States, it can apply anywhere. Which is to say, why do I have to fit myself into a box? What can I do with the skills and the education and the experience I already have to set myself up as an expert. Where could I develop a skill set that isn't out there? Like for example, cannabis is a big one right now. Bitcom is another one. So you can look at these areas, and if they're where you have an interest and where you feel that you could develop an expertise. Set yourself up that way, because then at the end of the day, people will come to you. They won't have a ton of choices because you will be at the top of the the pile in terms of this is the expert that knows this area. So that's what I advocate. I advocate that women always look at innovative practices because that's how we can really integrate all the different things that we like to do and how we like to do them.

Ron Bockstahler: So we're gonna now we're gonna have to change your title: lawyer, founder of Her Legal Global, and life coach.

Faye Gelb: There you go.

Ron Bockstahler: That was excellent home run. We always like to ask one final question, and that is, what would you like to see changed in the business of law going forward?

Faye Gelb: Well, I guess it's my same old theme, but I would like to see the biggest thing that I'd like is for people to change themselves. I would like people to go into law with that proactive, innovative, and strategic mindset, because law will change. You've seen it with COVID. It does change. It takes a long time, though. When we started our firm, which is a virtual law firm, it was not received with welcome open arms. There was a lot of confusion. You know, is this basically the same as having somebody outsourced to India. What is this? Why can't you be here? Why aren't you on the ground here? How can I, you know, talk to you if you're not in the same room? So we had a lot of pushback on that type of thing, and I think it takes a while for people to adopt. But if you change yourself, that changes can happen. Those changes can happen right away, and you can make a huge difference in everything about how you go forward. So, if you choose to implement, for example, quick wins, when we were talking about success before, it's a personal definition, and one of the things that can really help us to be positive and move forward is to implement what are called quick wins? We had a coach on our podcast named Charlene Lynch, who has a fascinating story, well worth listening to. And her whole acronym is Mind Shift, and she implemented a thing she calls quick wins. Quick wins are where you take something and you do it right away. For her, it was giving up coffee, which for me would not be a quick win, be slight torture, but that was her quick win. And you can do other things. So, for example, a quick win can be you get up at a five minutes earlier, or you do something. But it's a quick win, so you bring that positivity into your life, and you set yourself up for success, and that's what I think needs to change in law. If people would all be proactive about their careers, would all really think about them, and not just accept what is said as being the way it is, then it would make a huge difference. When I had my third child, when she was two months old, I was given a diagnosis, and it was cancer. And what ended up happening was I stopped thinking, because when you hear the word cancer, that's what happens. So I didn't think anymore, and I just followed the protocol. The protocol was to have surgery and. Then have radioactive iodine, and I prepared for the radioactive iodine. But on the day of, I couldn't have it for various reasons. And then something amazing happened. I started thinking again, and I thought maybe I don't need this. And I researched it, and sure enough, there were two opposite protocols in the province I lived in, and I happened to be in the one that said have the radioactive iodine. I traveled to the top doctor in the province. He told me I was cured, and if I hadn't started thinking again, I never would have got that. So what I want to tell everybody is, you have to think for yourself. Even though law has a structure, even though it's set up in a hierarchy, it doesn't mean it has to be the way you do it.

Ron Bockstahler: Kirsten, do you want to?

Kirsten Mayfield: I don't. You know, I'm absorbing so much of what she said. I'm just sitting and thinking, as you guys can probably see me. Say

Ron Bockstahler: this has been amazing, and

Kirsten Mayfield: it's

Ron Bockstahler: been it's been great just listening to you. You've great wisdom, and all for all of us to actually sit and think about.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, I think whether you're in law or not, there's just a lot of good like insights here for just being a human being. Thank you. I

Ron Bockstahler: think all of our listeners, our female listeners, need to go to herlegalglobal.com. Learn more. You can learn more about Faye at Faye Gelb F A Y E G E L B on LinkedIn.

Faye Gelb: I'd love to connect with everybody.

Ron Bockstahler: And and I can tell everyone I connected with Faye several months ago when I actually I think I connected her from another website, and so she is very, very available to talk to anyone. So please reach out if you haven't learned from this. I mean, this has been an amazing, amazing show. So we can't thank you enough for having for joining us today, Faye.

Faye Gelb: Thank you very much for having me on. It's been a real pleasure.

Ron Bockstahler: This concludes this show of the 1958 Lawyer. We'll catch everyone next week. Thank you.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.