Atty. Pat Cotter: Justice, Fairness, and the Human Side of Law

Voiceover: Welcome to the 1958 lawyer the show for attorneys who know the old model isn’t working anymore, the billable hour, the 12 hour day, the expensive office. No one visits. Your hosts, Ron Bockstahler and Clinton ind are here to question all of that and more by exploring smarter, healthier, more flexible ways to run a law firm, no more burnout, no more outdated expectations, just real conversations with attorneys who are proving there’s a better way. If you’re ready to build a law firm that’s profitable and livable, you’re in the right place. Now. Here are your hosts, Ron and Clinton.

Ron Bockstahler: All right. Welcome to the show. I am Ron Bockstahler, your co host, the founder of Amata.

Clinton Ind: Welcome to the show, everybody. The 1958 lawyer. I’m Clinton. End very excited about today’s guest, Pat Cotter, esteemed, well,

Atty. Pat Cotter: yeah, let’s not go crazy.

Clinton Ind: Let’s not get too crazy. Yeah, amazing. Amazing criminal defense attorney, amazing criminal prosecutor. Had a long, long career that has been really such a pleasure of mine to be able to watch the last half of your career, in the last 20 years, Pat but also hear the stories about the first half of your career. I don’t want to speak too much for Pat but couple of snippets, you know, from the start of his his career as a criminal prosecutor in the Southern District of New York was one of two on the Eastern District of the Eastern District

Atty. Pat Cotter: of New York, the better one, sorry, eastern district, the Southern District got the headlines. We got the convictions. Yeah, that’s how it worked,

Clinton Ind: these details that escape civil litigators, yes, indeed. All right, that’s well, even better. I’m glad I’m learning more. Got the conviction on John Gotti, and that just set off an esteemed career most recently. And I’ll let you explain this one. Pat, you just represented a defendant who was being prosecuted alongside Michael Madigan, and as I understand it, you were the only one to get your guy off of the charges, something like that.

Atty. Pat Cotter: The formal term is, we beat it there. Yeah, yeah, no, I Yeah. I represent a guy named Mike McLean, who was co defendant with EX speaker Madigan, and not to put too fine a point on it, we had a four month long trial, and the jury was 11 to one to acquit my client on everything, and they they convicted Mr. Madigan, I think, on 10 counts. And the government, once they found out it was 11 to one for not guilty, they dropped the charges, so my guy was able to beat that one. And it’s fantastic. It’s not a coincidence that I retired before I had to do another trial. Why would you wait around, go out on a win, go out on a win. And besides, four months on trial is too long for an old man like me.

Clinton Ind: So, yeah, I cannot imagine what that would be like. We had the last guest we had. It was talking a lot about a three week trial. And I vote the longest trial I’ve ever done is three weeks with, you know, med mal trial, and the last guess was about four months. Is something that is beyond my comprehension.

Atty. Pat Cotter: You know, it was tough. It was tough. I though the first federal trial I ever did went about five months. So that was but I was young and it was different. Didn’t scare you out of business, yeah, and I was prosecuting, so that that that made a difference too, right? A long time ago, right, right?

Clinton Ind: Well, I’m very, like I said, very happy to have you on this show. Thanks for coming. Really wanted to, I’d say, congratulations, obviously, for your recent retirement. I hope it doesn’t sound like you’re too bored yet, but

Atty. Pat Cotter: not yet, not yet. I’m working on being bored. I’m looking forward to being bored.

Clinton Ind: Yeah, that’s the goal, right? So one of the things I wanted to discuss Pat is, you know, I don’t want to get too heavy in this call and this, this podcast, but you know, I was at your retirement party and you had some really amazing words about what you experienced, you know, as a general notion of how you’ve lived your last 49 or 43 years as the lawyer. And you used words like finding the practice of law to be akin to or somewhere in the middle of truth and justice and advocacy, and there were some other really great words that I don’t know if you prepared or just threw off the cuff, but at that moment in time, it kind of reminded me of why we kind of got into this in the first place. And. And, you know, and correct me anytime I’m getting something wrong here. But at the same time, you know, we’ve also had discussions in the past and about the difficulty of of the business of law, right, and how that’s and how it’s difficult sometimes to remember, you know, why you got into it when you’re grinding through hours when you’re trying to figure out, you know, how, how it is to make sense of what you’re doing when you know maybe you’re too separated from the results of the case. Oh, whatever the case may be, yeah, so I don’t know not to put you too much on the spot, because we didn’t rehearse this too much, but at the same time. I’d love some insight, I suppose, on how it is that you kind of kept that notion of truth and justice and advocacy and whatever else you said in order to kind of keep pushing you through those times when, when things were maybe, you know, difficult.

Atty. Pat Cotter: Yeah, no, I think it’s a, it’s a topic that all lawyers are interested in. They just are. I mean, the truth of the matter is, most of us were attracted to the law, at least in part, by the fact that it seemed to be about something important, something that mattered, you know, and that’s, it’s a big word, but it’s a real thing, justice. Justice is a is a goal, right? We chase it. We never catch it, and we’re never quite sure what it is, but we’re always chasing it, and that’s why most of us got interested in law. At the same time, there’s reality. And reality is, you got to pay the bills, you got to keep the office open. You got to do the drudgery. You got to keep the clients happy. You got to get the clients and you know, when you’re, as you say, when you’re you’re down, you know, doing the dirty work of running a real practice. It’s hard to remember that this is all about justice, but it is because that’s why we’re there. That’s why, you know, the taxpayers build the buildings we work in. You know, the courthouses, because it’s important to society that that lawyers are there to try and help individuals and the government and any other parties that are out there, companies, businesses, get justice, get a fair hearing. And justice, in my mind, is just. It’s fairness combined with truth, combined with understanding and a little bit of compassion, because it’s in a human endeavor, right? I mean, we’re dealing with people. We’re not dealing with, you know, gods or perfect people. Oh, anyway, it just seems to me, over my career, and obviously, everybody’s life is different, but in my career, I tried to always remember that that’s, at the end of the day, what it’s about, and that because when you’re pulling those late nights and when you’re having to do your time, and, you know, when you’re fighting with the office about nonsense, it’s nice once in a while to pull back and say, you know, actually, my life is not about that. That’s important. I gotta get paid. I gotta, I gotta take care of the business. But it’s really about this very important thing, which is trying to get justice and and for me, that helps, that helps, it helps put it in perspective. It helps, gives it meaning. It helped get me through, you know, long trials and long nights. And also, it helps get you through goofy little trials and weird little things, because you can always remind yourself, I know this is weird, I know I’m out in this little town arguing about stuff that the rest of the world doesn’t think is very important, but you know what for for this guy that hired me, he’s looking for a little justice, or at least he’s looking for somebody Who’s willing to fight to try and get him justice, even if you fail, you’re trying, and that means something to people, and it’s important. It’s a good way to spend your life. It’s, you know, it’s not just like trying to convince people to eat more Cheerios instead of, you know, life cereal. You know that, not that. Nothing against guys who do that. That’s great. Marketing guys are important, right? Yeah, but this is different, and that’s what I love about it, and and I do think it helps get you through all the drudgery,

Clinton Ind: yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. It’s interesting. You bring that up because I just happened to be on LinkedIn this morning, which I try to stay off of generally. But there was a guy who presumably is who I don’t know, but he’s on my feet, and presumably he’s a massive pi guy, but he posted his jury verdict win that equated to, you know, a $30,000 win, right? And it was a $60,000 verdict, $30,000 win because of comparative or contributory. And then you. But his whole spiel was, it was the for this client, this was a big deal, right? And they got their verdict and they got their justice. It was, it’s a big deal, yeah.

Atty. Pat Cotter: I mean, you know, I’ve had clients, you know, I started out my first job out of law school. I was a public defender in Brooklyn. You know, if you’re interested in movies, you go to Hollywood. If you’re interested in crime, you go to Brooklyn. So I went to Brooklyn, and I was public defender, and, you know, a lot of times the cases were just, we didn’t have a chance. I mean, they had 10 witnesses a confession. They they found the stuff the guy stole in his pocket. I mean, but what those guys the law says they’re entitled to, and what we gave them was the best shot we could. Yeah, my job wasn’t necessarily to get them off. My job was to do everything that could be done to get them as fair a shake as the law allowed. And you know, I had guys who would thank me, and they weren’t thanking because they got acquitted. They were in handcuffs being dragged away when they thanked me, but they were saying, Thanks for trying, thanks for trying. I for For once, I felt like I kind of got a fair deal. I mean, I did the crime and I’m going to go to jail for it, but at least I got a fair trial, and at least I got a lawyer who gave a damn and tried that’s, you know, that that means a lot, particularly, you know, at the end, when it’s, you know, 43 years and you call it a day, it’s nice to look back and say, you know, I actually tried to do Something good, and I think I did a little good. Didn’t change the world. But you know, for those individuals, like that guy who got the 30,000 for that person, that means a lot to that person. That’s probably one of the biggest events in that person’s entire life, that whole episode when they got hurt, and then they had to fight to get a trial. And they finally got a trial, and by God, they won, and they got a little award for that person. That may be one of the two or three most important things that ever happens in their lives. And if you can help them make that happen, that that’s pretty good, that’s pretty

Clinton Ind: that’s really good. It’s really good to keep in mind. And as you’re talking, all I’m thinking about is, how do I I’m not going to say it’s easy. All I’m thinking about is, how do I keep that fresh in my mind, right in the practice? And I think it’s really it is really difficult. I know it’s really difficult. My assumption that I started to go into before I finished. My first thought was that maybe that’s a little bit easier when i You’re not dealing with, you know, the kind of client base that I have and had is which is just commercial. It’s all just commercial. It’s all breach of contract, and it’s all money, and you’re billing hours, and all your all you’re dealing with, and, you know, no one’s going to jail, no one’s it’s all just leverage. And there’s a constant discussion with clients about, you know, when to leverage something and when to settle something, and when to go for it, when to press and when not to but it’s all about leverage, and it’s all about money. I guess, to round that out, I feel like what I need to do right now is probably go down and volunteer at the CBA office or the Justice Center or something like that, and and make sure that I’m dealing with people who the law matters to on a day to day basis.

Atty. Pat Cotter: Well, I mean, I don’t want to dissuade you from going down and volunteering. Okay, that’s not what I’m saying, but you know what I mean? Yeah, it’s money, but there’s real people behind the money. Yeah. And what you’re doing is you’re trying to get them treated fairly. They come in and they say, you know, I got in this deal with this guy or this company, and they’re, they’re trying to, you know, to use the Latin term, screw me over and, and I need help. I don’t want to let him get away with it. I’m not getting treated fairly, and you’re in there fighting for him. There’s always a person there. There’s always a person. They may be way down, you know, you can represent a big institution, you know, but there’s always a person at the at the bottom of it. And, and the point is, is that as lawyers, part of our job is to try and make this legal system which we need as a society. So we’re not, you know, all out there with clubs beating each other on the head, trying to make it work as well as we can. It’s incredibly flawed. It gets stuff wrong every day. There’s biases and prejudices and advantages and disadvantages. We all know about that, but lawyers are supposed to be trying, and whatever they do, whatever legal work they do, if it’s writing up a will or a lease or anything, you’re trying to make the whole system work as well as it can, which means as far. Fair as it can. That’s what most people mean when they say, justice. I’d like a little fairness, please. I’d like to be treated fair and and what lawyers do is try and make that happen. That’s our job, and it, yeah, it’s easier to see it when there’s this guy sitting there saying, for the love of God, keep me out of jail, right? But it, we’re all part of trying to make this system fairer better. And I think it’s, it’s good work. I think it’s a good way to spend your life. Obviously, it’s the way I chose to spend my life. And it helps if you get a kick out of it, and you haven’t some laughs along the way, and you having some fun, and it, it gets your juices flowing, and you enjoy the challenges. But I’m with you. I mean, I Jesus, I can’t count the number of times I was, you know, sitting in my office or walking out of court saying, This is it, this whole system screwy. I got, I’m gonna go get a better job, you know, yeah, but you know, then you calm down, maybe you, you know, take a little medicine over at the pub, and then you, then you step back, you say, no, actually, this is a good job. It’s a good job. Today’s a tough day, but this is a good job, yeah.

Ron Bockstahler: And I gotta imagine, you’ve seen a lot over 40, what? Three year career. Yeah, and the business has changed. I met you probably started with the secretarial pool. You know, most young attorneys wouldn’t even know what that is at this point in time. So, yeah, how did you cope with all the changes as they came across? Just just continuously seeing these changes and, you know, to what you see today?

Atty. Pat Cotter: Yeah, it, it has changed tremendously. I I tried my first case in 1982 no computers, no cell phones. It was a different world.

Clinton Ind: No windows. 95 that works, yeah, no.

Atty. Pat Cotter: It was very different. Word. Everything was paper. I remember as a young lawyer running, running down the street with an appeal brief in my hand at like four seven, because it was due by five, and if you didn’t get there by five, you lost. And in Chicago at the time, we had a deal if they’d let you in the building, even if it was after five. It was so old the building was sold, they had transoms, which are those windows above old doors to allow for airflow. And they would leave the transom open. And if you took your brief and threw it through the transom, it would land on the floor in the office. And in the morning, the clerks had come in and be and they would pick up all the briefs on the floor and they would date stamp them before they move the date stamp ahead. And I’m not, I’m not going to admit to anything that that would be improper, but I will say there were rumors that some lawyers had arrangements with the night staff at the courthouse to let them in late at night so they could throw their briefs over the transom. But that’s how old I am. All right, I know it’s hard to believe I look so young, but the fact of the matter is it has been a real challenge and it and the thing about it is that as the technology and the methods advance, the change comes much faster. I think the way I practiced law in 1982 was not that different than the way they were practicing law back in 1962 but the way I practiced in 82 was wildly different than the way we were practicing in 2002 and the way we’re practicing now. The changes just come faster. They they’re more fundamental. The fact of the matter is, you can’t file anything in paper anymore, unless you happen to be a prisoner in jail. Everything has to be electronic. You must. You had to, even though I resisted it, you had to learn how to type and on a computer and file your own stuff electronically. I had, I’ve always had a secretary. I i will tell you I did until the last day I practiced, and that’s because I always had very, very nice women, secretaries who took pity on me because I was such an idiot, and they always took care of me from 1982 until 2026

Clinton Ind: which is to say a male, male Secretary would have also taken pity on you as well. The level of idiocy was probably my level

Atty. Pat Cotter: of idiocy was so compelling that I think any halfway decent human being would have taken pity on me and saved me. But no, you know, i The funny thing is, the biggest change I. Found is research. When I started out, when I was a high school kid, I was a gopher boy for a lawyer on a solo practitioner on LaSalle street, and I used to get him his lunch and stuff. But one of the things he did is he taught me how to shepherdize the case, and shepherdizing in the books. Yeah, it was the books and you had it was incredible. It was incredibly complex system, where to look up a case and learn its history and where it had been cited, you had to refer to sometimes five, six different books. It was crazy, but that was the system, and it had been the system since the 1900s at least, and he taught me how to do it. So when I got to law school, I actually had a huge advantage over the other students. I knew how to shepherdize. And it was a skill. It was a skill to get it right, you had to do it in the right order, and you had to check all the right books. And within a couple years of becoming a lawyer, it became meaningless, yeah. And that skill that some people had sort of built their niche in the office on, oh, he’s the great researcher. He knows how to do everything. Bang. Somebody brought a computer to work one day, and that guy lost his whole gig. I mean, nobody needed him anymore. Press a button. But research has changed the business dramatically. The other big for criminal law, and I think this is true of all law, certainly litigation. The other major change that sticks out to me is the advent of email. Email changed everything. When I was on the team that prosecuted John Gotti the first day his arraignment, we took all the evidence against him, and it was part of my job. I put all the evidence on a little cart, a little two, two shelf cart, and we had the tapes, and we had some photos, and we had maybe a couple packs of paper, and I wheeled it over to the courtroom. And Mr. Gotti came in, and he had 20 lawyers at the time, and they all came in and on the record, I said, Your Honor, at this time, I’m serving discovery on the defense. And I pushed the card over to them, and I said, when the trial’s over, I’d like my cart back. And they said, Sure,

Clinton Ind: those are the arraignment. You said, this is at the arraignment.

Atty. Pat Cotter: This is at the arraignment. Okay? That was it. That was it. That was the universe we had to work with. And that’s what they had to learn to try the case. And that’s what I was going to try the case on. Email blew that world away. The last trial I did, I got over 3 million pieces of discovery, 3 million pieces, and it was mostly because of email and electronic document preservation, which, of course, didn’t exist in the old days. Yeah, you know, if you didn’t find the real piece of paper, you just didn’t have that exist. That’s the way it was. And that changed everything, because it put it made it so expensive to litigate for anybody, even a big company, it’s become so expensive to litigate, to do, to plow through millions of pieces of discovery that it changed the dynamic. It really changed the dynamic. And I think that’s when people began really deciding that going to trial was just the last option, and in the criminal world, it made a huge difference, because with so much paper, it became so much harder to defend people. And I’m old enough to remember where the case was mostly cross examining the other guy’s witnesses. But today it’s it’s sitting there and for hours having pieces of paper introduced, and they’re not even pieces of paper, they’re right. They’re images on a screen being introduced for hours and days on end, so that you’re absolutely right. Ron, the technological revolutions have been enormous. They’ve changed so much of the way we do business. It’s made it so much more expensive for individuals to defend themselves, because even companies, because there’s so much discovery that has to be gone through, that you’ve got to be pretty wealthy, or you got to have a deep pocket somewhere to pay for it. So it’s it, you’re right. It’s changed a lot. It’s been a challenge to an old fogy like me. But you know, I I’m like Blanche DuBois street car Named Desire. I rely on the kindness of strangers and and support staff, and they have helped me stay in the game for as long as I did, which

Clinton Ind: is where that understanding piece comes in, right? Yeah, that’s right, understanding it, yeah, right.

Atty. Pat Cotter: Hey, ours is a human business. Yes, if you can’t relate to that, if you can’t figure out what that client needs from you and wants you to be, they’re not going to be your client very long. And it’s the same with a jury. It’s the same with witnesses. It’s a lot of figuring out human beings and what they want and what they’re afraid of, and what they’re trying to do. So it’s a very human business, even though it’s now become so much, you know, electronic data.

Clinton Ind: Well, I feel like, though, I mean, that’s a great, great, great way to close it out. I feel like, because the one thing that seems to me that’s consistent, is the requirement, if you’re going to be a trial attorney, right, or you’re going to be dealing with clients or right, or if you’re litigating

Atty. Pat Cotter: face to face with the client, you got to be able to do that. Yeah, yeah.

Clinton Ind: And it’s, I feel like what I’ve kind of seen recently. You know, talking about these technological advancements is, you know, you may not have to you can click a button to jeopardize now on Plexus, and that’s all well and good, but then you get this new thing where a computer program, chat, GPT, can write you a brief. But the thing that’s missing, and I don’t know why this went away, it still blows my mind. Is that diligence piece right? Your diligence in jeopardizing when you were starting was much more difficult, and it’s so much easier now. But along with the technology came this ignorance of the need to be diligent in your practice and actually check that the case actually even exists, or says, What chat GPT says is going to say, I don’t mean to blame chat GBT. It’s, you know, any, any generative AI program seems to with the hallucinations, but the diligence of the lawyers has to remain. It has to be that, oh,

Atty. Pat Cotter: if anything, I think it’s more it’s more important now, in the old days, you know, frankly, we didn’t cite as many cases because it was too hard to find them, right? You know, you found the few cases you could find, and then it was time to go. You know, you got to you got to move. Now, people come in and they’ve, oh, they found 300 cases that are relevant, and it is so tempting to rely on chat GPT. But what I was telling some younger lawyers not all that long ago is, I said, Look, chat GPT is sort of, or AI, if you will, is, is really it’s like that, that associate that gets hired right out of law school, and, man, they’re sharp. They’re so sharp. And, and, you know, you say, oh, hey Billy, go do some research on this question for me. And Billy comes back and he’s, he’s billed 90 hours because he apparently doesn’t sleep and and don’t even eat. He just works. And Billy comes and he presents you with this wonderful research paper. And the temptation for old lawyers like me has always been, well, Billy’s really smart. Billy wrote this. I’m just gonna sign my name, yeah, but I’m going golfing, right? I don’t replicate 98 you know, I just don’t want to work that hard, because Billy’s young and smarter than me, you can’t do that, because if you if you did even in the old days, if you did that, you get burned because Billy’s young, and Billy makes mistakes, and Billy sometimes doesn’t really understand the way this works. And I saw guys even in the old days get burned bad, real bad. And today we see a lot of guys getting burned bad by AI. But you’re right. The key word is diligence. You’ve got to check it. You can’t just assume that because AI gave it to you or bright Billy, that it’s true and that it’s accurate and it’s actually what you want. You got to do the work. You got to do the work. And, and I’m so glad I came along, pretty much after AI, because I know as a young guy, I would have been very tempted to be, Oh, for sure, I would have been super tempted to be the best argument ever. Why? Why look at the gift horse in a mouth. I mean, has done all my work for me, and you know, I’m so glad I didn’t have to face that temptation. But, yeah, I think it’s a huge issue, and I think lawyers are going to have to reset their minds to realize that just because something looks good doesn’t mean it is good, and that they if anything AI, it hasn’t really relieved them of work. It’s just changed the work. It gives you a very good start. It gives you a place to begin, but it’s never going to replace you doing the work. Yeah, so that’s the bad news for all you young guys. Oh, guys like me, I’m done,

Clinton Ind: but anyway, well, I’m very jealous of you being done, and I really appreciate you coming on. Tell me, though, I think when we talked last, which wasn’t that long ago, it was, what was the thing you were most excited about right now? It’s no no deadlines,

Atty. Pat Cotter: no deadlines, no deadlines. I only have one rule for whatever I do next, no more deadlines. That I’ve had lines since high school. They reached a new height in law school, and for the rest of my 43 years of practice, I had judges constantly setting deadlines for me, and I had to live and die by those deadlines, they determined, you know, when I could go home. They determined when I could take a vacation. They could determine what I took my wife out. They determined everything. And I had to live with them. And we all live with them. And I’ve decided in my retirement, I refuse to get involved in anything that involves deadlines.

Clinton Ind: The next time I see your wife, I’m going to make sure that whatever honey do list she’s created does not have a to be done by. There’s just going to be out. It’s just going to be, hey, if you want to do it, then

Atty. Pat Cotter: do it. It’s in the it’s floating in the universe. You can pick it up if you feel like it, whenever you feel like it. That I can live with that. Yeah. No more deadlines. No more deadlines. As we

Ron Bockstahler: wind down, lot of younger attorneys listening, we’d like any words of wisdom you clearly enjoyed your career as an attorney. Quite often, I hear people talk about, I’m recovering attorney, which is a little frustrating, so we don’t want to hear too many of those things. So what kind of input advice can you give these young attorneys?

Atty. Pat Cotter: I’d say, Don’t forget how cool it is that we get to do this. You know, it is a business, but it’s a privilege. We get to go into a courtroom and we get to stand up and say, Pat Cotter for the defense, or pat Cotter for the government, or pat Cotter for the ABC Corporation. That’s huge. When you were a kid thinking about being a lawyer, you used to dream about those moments, and now they’re happening. Don’t ever lose how cool it is what we do. It is a huge privilege to be able to use our court system to try and get what your client needs or wants, and to do it not just like some sort of Hired Gun. That’s a horrible image for lawyers. You’re not a hired gun. You’re a professional who lives by a code. I always like the idea of the samurai. The samurai lived by a code. They would do what they could for their for their master, but they would do it according to the code. And if they couldn’t do it by the code, guess what? They didn’t do it, and because of that, they had pride. They had honor. And lawyers can have honor and pride if we do it the right way, but it is so cool to do what we do, and just don’t ever lose that realization, because I guarantee you, the first time you walked into court. It was pretty exciting. It was pretty cool. Don’t ever forget that you should feel that way a little bit every time you walk in. And if you do that, you know you will at the end, however long you practice, I think at the end, you’ll feel good about what you did, not just, yeah, I made a living and all that. But, man, it was really cool. What I did, what I spent my life doing, it was important. It helped people. It did something for society, and God damn, I enjoyed it. So that’s that’s my advice to you, enjoy it for all the right reasons.

Clinton Ind: That’s awesome.

Ron Bockstahler: Thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Congratulations. Hope this next venture your life is just wonderful.

Atty. Pat Cotter: Thank you. Thanks very much. I enjoyed it really great to see you. Pat. Thank you good. Talk with you guys. All right,

Ron Bockstahler: guys, taking it home. Thanks for listening to the show today. Catch us next week, we’ll be talking into oh gosh Clinton, who’s our next guest? You got that on the list? Santiago. Santiago professor teaches at city colleges, teaches paralegals, gonna talk about what is taken in bilingual family law practice. So tune in next week. Thanks everyone.

Voiceover: Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer. If you like the show, tell a friend and please subscribe, rate and review us on Apple Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you’d like to hear more about Ron Clinton or amata, go to AmataOffices.com that’s AmataOffices.com All the links are also in the show notes.