Clinton Ind: Finding Your Niche In The Business Of Law

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the show. My name is Ron Bockstahler,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I am Kirsten Mayfield.

Ron Bockstahler: Today, the 1958 lawyer, we're going to talk to Attorney Clinton Ind. Clinton's been practicing law for 10 plus years. He started off with a solo practice and recently went in-house with Quantum Polymers. We're really interested to understand the changes and the differences of what it's like to have your own firm versus going in-house and what your experiences are. So, Kirsten, you want to take it away?

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, I'm first going to derail this conversation a bit because you have your pilot's license.

Clinton Ind: Oh, you found that? Yeah, yeah. I have my pilot's license. Technically, I would not fly myself. I certainly wouldn't take one of my kids up in a plane with me at this juncture. But I guess if stuck in a real pinch, I could maybe put wheels on the ground and slide sideways a little bit for a little while before it actually came to rest. Potentially,

Kirsten Mayfield: oh, that's good. So, as like this ongoing apocalypse is happening, we know we can we can go to you for a potential getaway to private. Yeah, for for

Clinton Ind: a evacuation. Yeah, if you guys supply the island, I'll do my best to get us there.

Kirsten Mayfield: Okay, we can do that.

Ron Bockstahler: So, so Clinton, tell us. So, you didn't start off here in the states. So where are you from? Kind of give us your history. How did you become an attorney?

Clinton Ind: Yeah, I grew up in Australia and came over to the states when I was 17 on a on an athletic scholarship to a little junior college in Iowa, which was a great experience for a couple of years, and then ended up finishing out my degree at University of North Dakota because they had a big aviation program, have a big aviation program up there, and I thought I wanted to be a commercial pilot. But after getting my my private pilot's license, I realized I didn't really want to do that. Anyway, throughout that process, through undergrad, I met my American wife, soon to be American wife anyway, and we moved to Minneapolis and worked for a couple of years and got married. And she said, "I don't, I don't like what I'm doing. I want to go to law school. And I didn't want to be left out, so I said, "I'll go to law school too. And that's kind of it. We went to law school together in Madison, graduated in 2006, and then moved down to Chicago and been practicing ever since.

Ron Bockstahler: Interesting motivation to go through the struggles of becoming an attorney

Clinton Ind: together, or just generally?

Ron Bockstahler: Just in general, hey, what do you want to do? You know, I think I'll go to law school. That's a great idea. Let me join you.

Clinton Ind: Yeah, I don't know. I just, yeah, I guess I kind of roll with it a little bit like that, which has helped in the practice since then. But yeah, yeah, it was very much a well. I don't want to, you know. I was helping her with her study for the LSAT anyway, so I figured this stuff isn't too hard. Let's just let's just go. I'll just do it as well. And I don't know. It wasn't. Admittedly, it was not a really well thought out plan, but it's worked out. So let's

Ron Bockstahler: sidetrack. Your wife right now is an attorney.

Clinton Ind: Yeah,

Ron Bockstahler: and tell us about her practice.

Clinton Ind: Yeah, so she's at she's at a larger firm, one of the one of the country's larger firms, I suppose. They have an international presence. Yeah, so her practice was always very different from mine. I started out at a mid-sized regional firm, and she has always been at a larger international firm, yeah. So it's it's been interesting. It's interesting because the law is the same. The scale is obviously different, but the law is always the same. So I guess you know we've been good about being able to continue to relate on the common denominator, which is you know just talking the law and strategy with the law and things like that. As far as not to indicate that our whole personal lives are boring legal speak all the time, but yeah, I mean, it obviously it takes up a lot of our. Does the grass

Kirsten Mayfield: ever seem greener on her side?

Clinton Ind: Uh, no, not really, and I think she'd say the same for me. I think we do have, we are self-aware enough to know that our personalities, her personality, works for a firm like that, and mine never did. I didn't even last at, you know, 150 attorney regional firm for more than a less than two years. I had to get out of there. So, and she could never do a solo practice for the nine years that I did a solo practice. It's just a different kind of a, aside from the law being a common common denominator, you know, the the other issues that you have to deal with were not conducive to our respective strengths, such that we all that either of us I think thought that. Grass was greener on the other side. Worked out well. Worked out well.

Ron Bockstahler: So going out having a solo practice for nine years, what is like one thing that you didn't learn in law school that you had to learn while you were practicing?

Clinton Ind: Well, I think it's just the business, the business of law, which is essentially working with clients, getting clients, working with clients, keeping clients happy, using your litigation as a means to promote the customers or your clients' business objectives is not something that even is remotely addressed in law school. It's very much textbook law, and you know you come out and and you have to figure that stuff out for yourself, even even at the larger firms, right? In all firms, the you hear the discussions about rainmakers, and those rainmakers are people who can bring in business, and that is not something that is discussed in law school. At least it wasn't when I was going through law school.

Ron Bockstahler: So I get all that, and you got to run a business, so you're not just practicing law; you're running your business, you're practicing law. Is there anything within running that business besides the, you know, the key ingredient you just mentioned of going out and getting your clients, that really stands out as like that was like harder than I thought it would be, or I had no idea about that. What can you tell someone that's listening that's three years out of college or law school and they're saying I'm going to go hang my shingle?

Clinton Ind: Yeah, I think I was fortunate in that, well, I guess to back up a little bit, the law is never applying a particular case to a particular set of facts, right? You can have one one case applied to different sets of facts and come out with different outcomes. So, I guess you're always learning something new, and that can be intimidating, especially for somebody who's maybe only three years out of law school and wants to sit up there and shingle, so to the extent that you can overcome the intimidation of trying new things by creating a network of attorneys that you can you can speak with and associate with and get help, kind of figuring and working through a lot of the, a lot of the trials and tribulations of hanging your own shingle. I think that is the biggest piece of advice I'd give. You got to have a support network.

Kirsten Mayfield: How do you find one of those?

Clinton Ind: Yeah, it's hard. You have to join. You have to be a joiner, right? You have to be part of the CBA. You have to be part of the Illinois Bar, so the State Bar Association as well. You know, the easiest thing for me was because I am pretty social. The easiest thing for me was kind of being in a place where I could step out of my office and go and just chat with people. I made a lot of good friends and a lot of good relationships with attorneys who have helped out personally, and I would call friends as well as helped out professionally, just by merely going from office to office, and obviously not approaching it with the idea of, hey, this is somebody I might need to have in my corner at some point in the future. But just genuinely striking up conversation with people and trying to get to know them, and obviously, I got to say, a big part of my ability to do that was having was officing in a place like Amata, where I could not to have a gratuitous plug in here by that's too obvious, but having a place like Amata where you know I have an office and the next 10 offices around me are all attorneys and all people who have different levels of experience and different abilities and different strengths. Who you can just walk into their office, and they're always receptive and always kind of ready to to talk and and be that support network. It helped out a lot.

Ron Bockstahler: So one of the big things, and Kirsten, you can talk to this because you just sent me an article about the stress that's associated with practicing law. Oh

Kirsten Mayfield: yeah, yeah. You know, you're talking about like if you're in a social situation. I mean, for someone like me, I'm a bit of an introvert. Maybe I just assume like a lot of attorneys might feel the same way. You get into social situations where a lot of people, you know, drinking is an easier way to enter a social situation, but mental health with attorneys is a big concept. Having issues with, you know, depression and anxiety and alcoholism and stress-all of those things are interrelated. And the ABA worked with a group. They released an article in February of 2016 So you know it's been it's been some time, but it's just about the prevalence of substance abuse and mental health concerns among American attorneys specifically. And I mean, how do you how do you reconcile that with with a culture where you know networking and community is so important, but also stress is such a big thing. And I mean, maybe it's just American culture, but alcohol and community and networking and hanging out outside of work; those are big things. I mean, happy hours. I don't know if they exist as prevalently in other countries. I believe the Australians like to drink a lot, but. How do you how do you reconcile all those things?

Clinton Ind: Yeah, I that's a really good question. Maybe above my pay grade. I don't know. I I don't know how you reconcile that. I think you know an immediate answer that might come to mind is I don't think I feel like the practice of law and the legal system has enough opportunities where any individual could find a place where they could be comfortable, potentially be comfortable, just just staying in their lane without necessarily having to deal with stresses that might promote that that kind of activity that might promote you know drinking or or things that you might need to do to deal with the outside stresses. So I guess you. I think I think the response that I have is that you can probably find a niche in the practice of law that you would be able to be comfortable enough in without having to necessarily succumb to those a lot of those outside pressures that that might lead you down a path like that, you know. Not to make too broad a stroke, but like when I was talking about, you know, with my wife and myself, I, you know, I wouldn't be able to handle working at a big firm. But a lot of people think that being at a big firm is the be-all and end-all, and they might force yourself to to deal with those stresses that are associated with big firm life when you're it's really not a fit for you. So if you're if you're just going to be honest with yourself and recognize that that's not a fit for you in the first place, then you don't have to worry about a lot of those external pressures and stresses that might lead to a destructive path. I suppose

Ron Bockstahler: that leads to the great question. You just made a huge change from having your own practice to now you are in-house counsel at Quantum Polymers.

Clinton Ind: Yeah,

Ron Bockstahler: how are you handling that change? What's it been like?

Clinton Ind: It's actually really good. I guess to further on what I just said, it it actually feels like I am more in a better niche for myself now, being in house. Not that I was necessarily struggling or succumbing to those, succumbing to destructive behavior to deal with the the pressures of nine years of solo practice. But you know, now I'm in this. It actually feels it feels right. It feels better for me to be more involved in the business and the strategic side of the practice of law and the day-to-day application of the practice of law to their day-to-day business functions, it works better for me. So I'm actually really enjoying it.

Ron Bockstahler: Can you give us like the insight of what your day-to-day is like now?

Clinton Ind: Yeah, sure. So it's a highly transactional company. So there are a lot of issues associated with just the transactions themselves, and oftentimes just working through the transactions and issues that might arise because of the transactions. And you know, there's a that has been amplified obviously with the COVID 19 and pressures mounting on being able to supply product and being able to get the supply of product in order to to meet the commitments that may have been agreed to up up until this point in time, so there's a lot to do with just the day-to-day transactional things. But then again, it's not a huge company, and we are growing quite rapidly. So we're we're also looking at making sure that we we have all of our ducks in a row as far as just having human resources and and planning on the labor side, which is not something I've personally done a lot of in the past, and there's a lot of reach out again to that network that I referred to in the past to to kind of get a good understanding of what needs to happen labor-wise from an internal perspective. So a lot of dealing with just human resources and labor issues as well, again amplified because of COVID 19. But there's never a shortage of things to do. That's for sure.

Ron Bockstahler: Do you see in the future a need to contract outside counsel, or do you already have outside counsel that you coordinate?

Clinton Ind: I've already spoken with a few outside counsel who are helping me on some discrete issues, and mind you, not again, not for another gratuitous plug, but I people who I met in my time with Amata at a solo practice, and so there will be a need down the down the road, and to contract outside counsel and to either handle larger scale litigation or to to just help with kind of establishing risk mitigation platforms that might need to be installed in order to protect the company in the future. Yes, yes, you're on. Yes, indeed. It

Ron Bockstahler: sounded like you landed with a pretty good gig.

Clinton Ind: It's good for me. Again, it's good for me, right? I don't think it's for everybody, and a lot of the a lot of the colleagues I've met over the last 15 years since law school, who I know started litigation and then moved into in house, you know, we've all got our own stories, and some of them some of them really like it, and some of them don't. But it's really good for me. I really like it.

Ron Bockstahler: Let me. I have since I know you on a personal level. I know you have four young kids.

Clinton Ind:

Yeah. Ron Bockstahler: Balancing life and work, you know, what are the challenges you're seeing, and how have you dealt with those?

Clinton Ind: Ah, this this rolls back into the substance abuse issue. No, it would just do the best you can, right? I mean, my wife's talked. She's working at a big firm. She's busy. I'm busy. We fortunately have help. We've had a nanny for a long time who is great and gives us the time we need to do our jobs. Obviously, it's it's never enough time. So, but we just do the best we can. And we, you know, a big thing I've been focusing on lately is making sure that the stresses that are involved with the job, get shot off at the door when you walk in, so that the kids don't have to worry about me being a crabby dad. While for no fault of their own, it's hard enough dealing with with their needs for between the ages of 12 and three than to have to inject my own work-related stuff into their into our relationship, so I don't know, Ron. There's no good answer. I'm doing that. We're doing the best we can.

Ron Bockstahler: As you know, I've I've got five at home, and I understand exactly what we're talking about here. It's you got to let it go. Just leave it at the door. Come in, and and be a dad.

Clinton Ind: Yeah, yeah, and that's been hard, right? I mean, recently I started going into the office, but even then it's only a couple hours, a couple of days a week. So the office is, you know, I set up my desk in our bedroom, and so it's essentially, I mean, with COVID 19, it's very difficult to to turn it off and then just walk downstairs and be be be fun dad after a stressful day, but yeah, we're doing we're doing doing what we can.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, I think my kids think Fun Dad left maybe a year ago.

Clinton Ind: Uh huh. Right.

Ron Bockstahler: I think I sent you the text earlier. I walk into my off my home office today, and there's a sign on there that says I've been evicted.

Clinton Ind:

Yeah. Ron Bockstahler: You know, pack your things. So I think it must be time for me to get back into the office and maybe not be home so much.

Clinton Ind: I assume that was your wife that put that. Actually, maybe that was one of your kids, even, huh? Do you know who the who the culprit? Well,

Kirsten Mayfield: I assumed it was Rebecca as well. I believe it was it's her home office. I like how we're calling it my home office. She might she might that might be part of the eviction notice.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, you know, school's ended for most of my kids, and so now they've got a little more time, which I really just can't quite understand why they're not studying. So

Kirsten Mayfield: it's the summer. Leave us alone, Dad. That's a

Ron Bockstahler: couple last questions. You know, looking at your career, what do you think is your greatest attribute as a

Clinton Ind: lawyer. I always thought the greatest attribute was, and I think I identified it actually pretty quickly. It was tying in the litigation to the business side, and so I guess this move to where I'm at right now was probably inevitable after a period of time. But I always, I always took a lot of issue, and even recently with my with some logic cases that I've been involved in, have taken issue with opposing counsel who who probably do things that don't necessarily need to be done in the manner they're being done in order to run the business of being in a law firm, which essentially is maximizing billables, right? Yeah, and so I always I always thought my my best one of my biggest pitches to prospective clients was always I'm going to keep your business objectives in mind, and we don't necessarily need to write this this 30 page brief to get the point across when it can be done just as well in five pages, and maybe even more effectively in five pages, and it's going to save you, you know, $30,000 So, you know, let's let's go with the latter kind of a thing. That that was always what I felt like my strongest attribute was.

Kirsten Mayfield: Why do you think there's a hangup in that? Why do you think people would go with a 30,000 page item instead of a what seems like the shorter, faster, easier route? I

Clinton Ind: think a lot of it is perspective. You know, a lot of a lot of people. I think a lot of clients, especially logic clients, they they think that that is absolutely necessary, and they're going to pay to have potentially a judge or a trier of fact inundated with with a giant brief because that potentially shows that that they're right, right? I don't know. I think there's a lot of unnecessary intellectual writing put into what could be a very relatively straightforward issue, such that and it oftentimes in my mind confused a lot of a lot of the issues.

Ron Bockstahler: So let let's back up real quick. You know, the 1958 lawyer. We named the podcast that because that was the article that was published by the ABA that really kind of rolled out the billable hour in the legal industry. Let's talk about. You know, were you doing billable hours? Were you doing alternative fee arrangements? And what's your what's your position on how. Attorney should be billing to clients.

Clinton Ind: I did both. I did both. I did billable hours. I don't know if there's necessarily a way that any particular attorney should be billing. I just think it should be fair, and I guess this goes back to the prior point. I think you know to the point where, and I'm not accusing any particular individual about any of this, but I guess I've just suspected in the past that things were being done that didn't necessarily need to be done. So, in the particular manner, so I think to the point where you have whatever fee arrangement you have, if as long as you can honestly say that I'm being fair in what I'm doing for this fee, then then I think, I think that's all fine.

Kirsten Mayfield: So there's a level of morality involved in it.

Clinton Ind: Yeah, I think there has to be. I think there has to be. And then you know, and you got to temper that though with somebody who I've never done a straight contingency relationship. So at least on the business side, but I know there are you know personal injury attorneys who not necessarily get a windfall, but they get, you know, if they settle a case for a large amount of money up front without necessarily having done a lot of work, then it looks like a windfall, and that's really not what I'm talking about. I think those guys are different because there's a lot of risk in having a practice like that, and a lot of risk in taking on those kinds of clients. So my perspective really only comes, you know, happy business clients. I think.

Ron Bockstahler: So our podcast is about change. So let me ask you a final question: What is the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed?

Clinton Ind: Oh wow, you should have given me a heads up on that one. I probably could have prepared something for you. One thing in the legal profession that should be changed. I don't know. I think greater access. I think greater access to the legal profession from from consumers, right? By consumers. I think when you get to criminal matters, particularly, and I'm going to say this with the caveat of never having done a criminal case, I've always been civil. But I see it even with civil that there is a certain threshold of a pay-to-play. The injustice of which I think is amplified on the criminal side, but even on the civil side, there's a pay-to-play aspect to being a a party in a lawsuit, and to the extent that a change could occur, such that you know a justice, whether that's civil or criminal, could be achieved without necessarily having to worry as much about the initial outlay of money, would be a real positive. But I don't know. That being said, I don't know how to achieve that.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, you know, this gives you this gives you something to think about. We can bring you back on the show at another day, and we can really hit on maybe I don't know. Maybe nothing needs to be changed. Maybe there are things that do need to be changed. But

Clinton Ind: you're

Ron Bockstahler: always looking at to how we can make it better, and how can we make justice and the legal system available to everyone. So I hear what you're saying.

Clinton Ind: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for doing that. Yeah, something to think about.

Ron Bockstahler: Clinton IND, Clinton End. I think I've been calling you Clinton Ind for too many, too long.

Kirsten Mayfield: That's right.

Ron Bockstahler: Corporate litigator, lead in-house counsel at Quantum Polymers. Thanks for joining us on the show today. It's been great talking to you. Great catching up. Really appreciate your insight into the legal industry and what you've had going.

Clinton Ind: Thanks for inviting me. Happy to be part of it. It's a great thing you guys are doing. Keep it up.

Ron Bockstahler: Thank you. Take care. We'll see you on the golf course soon. Thank you.

Clinton Ind: I hope so. Thanks, mate. Take care.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.