Coleman & Vannucci: How Immigration Attorneys are Handling their Challenging Practice Area

Strickland Bonner: So you're a lawyer, and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, welcome to the show, the 1958 Lawyer. I am your co-host Ron Bockstahler,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I'm Kirsten Mayfield, and we have a very special episode for you today because for the first time we have two guests on the show, I'm going to introduce first Christina Coleman. She's the founder and owner of RC Immigration LLC, and she handles a side of immigration I've never really given much thought to, which is more like the employment side. So, if you're a company in the U.S. looking to hire foreign workers, or if you're multinational and you're looking to transfer foreign employees, executives, that kind of thing, over to the U.S. She's your gal, and her accompaniment today is Katie Vannucci, who's a shareholder at the law offices of Robert D. And I should have asked how to say this, Algren.

Katie Vannucci: That's close, yes, Algren.

Kirsten Mayfield: All right, I should have just rolled with it. I would have looked great. So Katie handles the side that I would say I'm more familiar with, which is asylum and DACA, the individual base. So advocacy regarding immigration reform, ending family detention, that whole spiel. Thank you so much for joining us today, ladies.

Katie Vannucci: Thanks for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. This is going to be fun.

Kirsten Mayfield: This is going to be really fun, and I have to say I'm going to jump into Christina first because of what I already said. That that's a side of immigration I haven't given much thought to. But a couple of weeks ago, I listened to a podcast actually about that. So, Katie, this is such an interesting area. What made you, or not, Katie, Christina. What made you pick the the company corporate side of of going into immigration?

Christina Coleman: Well, basically, how I became an immigration lawyer at all is kind of an interesting story. Maybe I'll just start there. Yeah,

Kirsten Mayfield: please.

Christina Coleman: I'm originally from Canada. I grew up in Toronto. I went to undergrad in Canada, and I came down the United States to pursue a PhD in medieval literature, and that is actually where my Canterbury

Kirsten Mayfield: Tales. Anybody?

Christina Coleman: Exactly, exactly. Wife of Bath and all that. And I had to get a student visa. I got an f1 student visa to attend, and had no intention of ever being a lawyer, and got the opportunity to come out to Chicago for a year after doing my PhD boards, and took what was supposed to be a temporary job writing for an immigration lawyer and doing employment style petitions. And there's a couple of of different kinds, and there's room for creativity here that you wouldn't expect. I I would have thought it would be very transactional, very boring, very cut and dried. But there are opportunities for foreign nationals of extraordinary ability or who do work that's really in the national interest to petition for their own entry into the United States, and I started working on those petitions, and they were so interesting. And I got to learn about all different areas of medicine, scientific research, and then you could also do them for for all kinds of areas. I've done ones for dog trainers, people who are just out there in their field. They're the very best. And so, long story short, I thought after what was supposed to be six months turned into five years, I thought, you know what? If I would, I like this. I think I'm going to go back to school. Can you tell I love school? And got my law degree, and then did sort of segue away from immigration and did work for corporations and sort of started to appreciate that side of things as well. And ultimately, when I decided to open my own law firm, I wanted to focus more on the corporate side because I did have that background, and I loved doing the national interest waiver and extraordinary ability petitions. So that was kind of what I knew and what I decided to to stay with immigration, as I'm sure you know, and Katie jump in, but it's it's so complex, and you know, especially over the past few years, has been changing so much. You don't want to dabble, and there really is a division-not division, but there really are two types of immigration lawyers: employment-based and and what we call family-based, typically. And Katie, Katie has you know been doing family based since she graduated from law school, right, Katie?

Katie Vannucci: Yeah, since I graduated, I kind of also knew going into law school that I did want to pursue immigration, but I kind of had the challenge of while in law school, I really like. A lot of different areas of law as well, including criminal law and family law, adoptions, and you know I remember feeling this like conflict. You know, approaching third year of law school of oh my gosh, you know what am I? Where do I see myself? What am I going to do? Because I was worried about pigeonholing myself if I decide to pursue immigration law as my career, is what if I don't like it? Am I going to be able to to pivot and do something different? And I remember I took out my law school entrance essay, which talked all about wanting to pursue immigration, and it was a really important moment. And I realized what this was all about. Why I went to law school because I really came to law school wanting to help people, and I had studied Spanish undergrad and had done some amazing volunteer opportunities along the border. And it was that passion and that desire to help and to be able to use my Spanish that really led me to pursue immigration. I'm so glad I did.

Ron Bockstahler: Katie, what was your background before college? Where'd you grow up, and what what kind of led you want to go into immigration?

Katie Vannucci: Yeah, so I'm originally from the East Coast. So I'm from Connecticut. I grew up there and went to undergrad at Loyola in Baltimore. And while I was there, that was where I had the opportunity to study abroad in Spain, and and I remember it was so random how I even discovered immigration law. I knew that I wanted to to pursue the law, and I remember you know the one summer going into my senior year of college, I thought to myself, you know what, this summer I should probably try to find a job where I do something in the legal field, because every other summer I had been waitressing, where I made you know good money, which was awesome. But I thought maybe I should try to find a real job. And I remember sitting around the dinner table talking to my parents, and my mom told me, "Katie, what about why don't you get a job working at a an immigration law firm because I think think you might be able to use your Spanish at at a firm like that and and I remember asking what kind of what kind of law is that my mom was like I don't know I think think it helps people get their citizenship I was like oh that sounds cool yeah let you know let me see if we can find a job in in that area and I did and I spent that summer you know, as a 20-year-old interning at an immigration law firm, but loved it. I loved every minute of it. I loved working with the clients and the the people that came into the firm, but also more importantly, getting to use my Spanish and feeling like I was I was doing something meaningful. So that and then that led me down a path of you know different you know volunteer opportunities, especially along the border, which is where I saw firsthand the impact of all these policies, and that was what you know drew me to to pursue immigration.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, how did you and Christina get together and meet?

Katie Vannucci: That's a great question. So, Christina and I actually went to law school together.

Kirsten Mayfield: Oh, I'm

Katie Vannucci: trying to remember, Christina. Was it like legal research? I'm trying to remember what we had some classes together. I think

Christina Coleman: we were in that ethics class together that we had to take with. Oh gosh, what was his name? But we definitely had one or two classes together. We didn't know each other, you know, beyond outside of class much. We did the pills auction together. That's right. Public interest law society always had a a big auction every year, and Katie was super you know active in that group. I was in law school with a brand new baby. I had my son right before I started law school, so I did what I could to participate in some of these, you know, kind of events and societies, but I was not perhaps as as active as some. I people always like, how did you do that? I'm like, I don't know. I don't remember first semester at all. My son was two months old, so and it. I don't know how

Katie Vannucci: you did that. I could barely take care of myself during law school. I still can barely take care of myself.

Kirsten Mayfield: So where's the like pass off between you two? Because I feel like you guys probably give each other referrals, but I'm not in my brain. I can't sort out where.

Christina Coleman: So we have there's a tiny bit of overlap where we both might do like a citizenship application, but by and large, if someone comes to me with a complex family matter that is beyond that's going to require you know some criminal analysis that's going to require require potentially going to court that's going to require a complex waiver, I don't specialize in that area and I try to serve my clients. One of the ways I feel it's important, as you know, a small, a smaller firm. We're very small. Is if I can't do something that I feel pretty expert in and do it efficiently, I would. I feel I'd better serve my client to pass them along to an amazing resource like Katie, and that's that's what I. That's what I do. So basically, if I get someone who is really out of my lane, I will pass them along to Katie. Or if she's conflicted out, occasionally that might happen, or doesn't have the bandwidth. One thing I love about the immigration community, and I really noticed it since I went out on my own, is everybody is so collaborative, so helpful. You know, I did corporate defense work for six years, and maybe it was the particular lane I was in at Sidley. But wow, I wouldn't call my plaintiff or sort of counsel outside of the firm. You know, no, you couldn't just you could just email a colleague and say, "Hey, have you ever had this situation? What should I do? You know, and and it's it's just been amazing, and I felt so supported. You know, one of the questions you asked was how Katie and I really got close, and it was through a mutual friend of ours who also went to law school with us, and amazingly was a nanny for my son. The summer that I was at Sidley, my my summer associate summer, he did some some childcare for my for my son. He was a wonderful, wonderful person, and Katie was also very close with him. And while I went off in a different direction for a while. Brad also took up immigration right away, and and he went the employment route as well. He was very interested in business and stuff. But him and Katie were close, and you know referred each other a lot of a lot of cases. And when the time came for me to finally, you know, I finally had kind of a Katie moment where I'm like, let's let's get back to why I went to law school in the first place. I what you know, one great thing about Sidley is they did let me do pro bono immigration work, and I did have an amazing case that went up to the Seventh Circuit on immigration, so I didn't sort of totally drop out, but I wasn't doing immigration. So the time finally came. This friend, mutual friend of ours, was was ready to make a jump too from his big law firm, and he said, "Come with me, let's do it together. And I thought, "This is this is great. This will be perfect. And we opened in February, February, and he very tragically and untimely passed away that May.

Kirsten Mayfield: Oh my gosh!

Christina Coleman: And you know, Katie was there for me, and so I'm getting emotional. I didn't think I I didn't know if I could do it by myself. It was never the plan. You know, he had all the business acumen and all the contacts. I was, you know, I was more of the the grinder and the minder than what we call the finder. I don't know if that's terminology you guys are familiar with, but he was the finder. I was supposed to be the grinder slash minder. So, but Katie was there, so supportive, so amazing, you know. And I just I don't know. It's turning to a Katie testimonial, but the whole community was very supportive, and and that's and we just got so close in that moment. And and I've been so lucky to have her and you know there for me. And and you know it's it's tough. Like a lot of people go through these you know things happen when you're making your plans for your your future law career. I know Katie has had some some develop. You know, I don't know what to call it, but you know, just wrinkles in the path, right?

Katie Vannucci: But you know, I remember when when all of that happened and having these conversations with Christina and being like, Christina, you can do this. You've got this, and and whatever you need help with, not only am I here, but you have resources and you have help, and and I'm just I couldn't be prouder to see how much Christina was able to accomplish and it's still accomplishing, and she's just one badass immigration lawyer. Her clients are lucky to have her.

Ron Bockstahler: We talk about a show about going on your own, and that would be like right in our league. We'll get you back on for that. Let's focus on the immigration though, because we just changed administrations. So a little bit like what it was like in the past administration and what changes you're seeing today, so that listeners can kind of get a feel for you know what they could tell their clients. And let's start with

Katie. Katie Vannucci: Oh my goodness! So let's see. The past administration, it was like a you know a dumpster fire every day. There was just something new changing that was bad. I mean, there were no positive changes or policy changes in the last four years. And what they loved to do was drop new changes on Friday nights. It would be Friday at like 6o'clock and then all of a sudden you would get like a news alert of something crazy that changed. And you know they did it on purpose so that it wouldn't be you know make it on the news. And then by the time you got to Monday, all this other stuff happened over the weekend that it was. That big of a a news drop, you know. For me in my practice, I think probably one of the the most significant changes had to deal with DACA and the DACA recipients. You know that area of the law has been literally a roller coaster, and is starting in the beginning of the last administration, you know, and I remember after the election and just thinking, "Oh my goodness, you know, this president ran on a you know a platform of ending DACA, and I remember just thinking, you know, has he even met someone with DACA? I mean, do you know who we're talking about? This is not a group of people, you know, that you want to be deporting out of this country, and it was one of those things that I thought for sure on day one we would be having, you know, the end of DACA. It wasn't until September of 2017 that we had the administration announced that DACA was going to be ending, and and it was I mean gut wrenching. It felt like a punch in the stomach, and and for our clients or the DACA recipients, I mean literally talk about living in in limbo. Luckily, there was a lot of litigation that went on, and that kept DACA alive. And I used to joke it kept DACA on life support because what what happened was because of the pending litigation, new applicants were no longer able to apply for DACA. So if you didn't have DACA, you know, by the time in which it ended in 2017, you weren't able to apply for a new application for DACA. So it was kind of like you snooze, you lose, and you're not able to to apply for it, but the other huge group of individuals was that under the DACA program, you had to be at least 15 years of age to apply for DACA. So there were a whole group of young people that were what we call aging in to DACA. You know, they were just now turning 15, turning 16, turning 17, and because it was considered a new application, they were not able to apply for it. So the DAGA litigation, you know, went obviously all the way up to the Supreme Court. And I remember, you know, Christina will tell you this. I'm probably the most optimistic person you could ever meet. And and I was like, oh no, I I just don't think this this is going to end well in the Supreme Court, and so I was very pleasantly surprised when the Supreme Court came out and said, "You know what? The prior administration they they have every right to end the DACA program because it is by executive order, but they did it wrong. They did not follow the rules, which are very clear, and so so again, it kind of brought DACA back to life a little bit, but at the same time, you know, everybody knew that the future of DACA really depended on the the most recent elections, because at that point there wasn't enough time for the administration to really do what needed to be done to terminate DACA, and so it's really been like I said, it's been a roller coaster. We finally now, at the end of last year, so before the turnover in administrations, we finally had a court decision that came out and said that now because of the decision in the Supreme Court, new applications must be accepted for DACA. So that started late last year. The other really key thing is that under the DACA program, an individual with DACA is able to actually ask for permission to travel. So permission to travel outside of the country. Now that had been completely shut down under the last administration, and and that permission to travel was granted, for example, if it was school related. So if it was, you know, a study abroad program, like so many, you know, that I took advantage of as a student. If it was employment based, so if you were working for a company that had a training program in a different country, and more importantly, probably the broader category was those that were seeking the ability to travel for humanitarian reasons. So, for example, if you had a sick family member back in your home country, you would be able to ask. It's essentially, and I describe it to my clients as a permission slip. Like when you were in school and had to get a permission slip signed, so you could go on a field trip. It's basically that. So it was basically asking the government for this permission slip to travel outside of the country, under the last administration that was completely shut down and not allowed, and then again because of the ongoing litigation that reopened and is really we've already seen you know passage of decisions with that, which has really been great. But you know one of the biggest things that's still ongoing when we're thinking about DACA, is that there's still litigation ongoing in this area? So even though we've had a change in administration, and I already feel like this sigh of relief, one of his the new administration's first executive orders was basically an executive order just saying, "Hey, hey, DACA recipients." We've got you. We support you. We, you know, are committed to ensuring that this program remains in place. So coming from the administration, that just felt incredible. But in the background, there is still ongoing litigation, and the big case is taking place out of Texas. And this is, again, as you know, I'm very optimistic. I also have to be realistic because this is a judge that is very, very conservative and very much known to not be in favor of the DACA program, and so that is something that we might see a decision literally any day now. And you know, on the one hand, we've all been really relieved that we have this new administration and we have had kind of DACA be you know back to life, but we we also know that the floor could come out right right underneath us at any point depending on how this litigation winds up. So, you know that that's something that's just been a constant a constant change that we've seen.

Kirsten Mayfield: What's that like? Because this is obviously a podcast about change in law and the legal profession, and one of the reasons why the legal industry in the business section is so stagnated is because I mean, law takes a long time to change. So we're not trying to push forward in the business side of things because we're used to a very slow progression in law itself, what was it like for you recently? Did you were you have with all these things changing all the time? Has immigration always been a faster pace change, or was this like completely fresh and new and kind of like shook the firm?

Katie Vannucci: So I would definitely say overall in the last four years with the last administration, with so many changes, it it was incredibly difficult. I mean, literally, you were you know each day things could have been different in one area or the other, and it's like wait what what was the latest with that other litigation? Wait, is the injunction still in place? Wait, oh wait, wait, it's only I think a couple states. Is that does that include Illinois? And Christina's laughing because it was really hard to keep track of all of those changes. And so that's also one of the things somebody that just dabbles in immigration. I mean, you cannot do that well, and you definitely could not do that well in the last administration. I will say that immigration in general is an area that there is a lot of changes pretty regularly because a lot of it is policies and also regulations and regulatory changes. Because as you said, it takes a long time for laws to actually change. Even though everybody agrees that we need to see some change, and there are definitely, I think, on both sides of the aisle, everybody agrees we need to see some some comprehensive changes in our immigration system. It's just how do we do that? How do we actually get across the finish line? And and when we look at DACA and the Dream Act, which is really where that started, Senator Durbin first introduced the Dream Act in 2001. When I think about how that that was 20 years ago, and we are still in the exact same position of trying to provide stability for these young people that were brought here as children, it's like, oh my goodness, what you know? How much longer is it going to take to actually see that become a law?

Ron Bockstahler: Christina, same question for you. Let's talk about what you experienced in the past administration to what you've seen change today when it comes to work visas.

Christina Coleman: Sure. I was just going to add to Katie. I mean, I started doing immigration in 1998, and I think for the first five years, you know, we would have we would have things on the postings on the wall as to like where you file this kind of petition. It might have changed once or twice in five years. Stuff didn't. I mean, stuff has definitely been on an accelerated pace of change in the last. You know, certainly maybe it started earlier than than 2007 but it certainly feels like you know it's been ramping up and ramping up. And but what what I saw really in the last administration was just such a culture of uncertainty, right? So sort of like Katie was saying, but really writ large, I would say for for you know every foreign national, just this anxiety about well, is this going to be true tomorrow? I started having consultations with people, and I would have to say, look, this is you know this is accurate as of today. I can't guarantee that this is going to be true in a month. We saw so much pushback on, and and the administration definitely took aim at what are called H 1b visas. They were definitely in his crosshairs or their crosshairs, I should say. But you know, there was there was this is a has been a controversial visa for a while, mainly because people have scapegoated it to say this is you know foreign nationals are taking our our jobs, and we saw increase in demands like what

Ron Bockstahler: kind of jobs can you I guess get with the HB one.

Christina Coleman: So the H 1b is called a specialty occupation visa, and it is designed for individuals who have bachelor's degrees in specific areas, doing jobs that require those degrees. So the easiest example is an engineering job requires a bachelor's degree in engineering. So if you have a bachelor's degree in engineering and an employer who needs an engineer and wants to sponsor you, you can do an H 1b visa. Now, I started. I actually had an H 1b visa in 1999 and in 1999 you could just file for the H 1b visa, and that was that. And then they became so popular. And as early as I think 2001 they were talking about expanding the number of visas. There are 80-5000 available, and there have only been 80-5000 available since the beginning. And for years and years and years, they've talked about we should have more of them. In 2019 which is the last year I have, you know, specific numbers for there were 230,000 applicants for 80-5000 slots. So you had about a one in three chance. And the other thing about h1 Bs that's interesting is they require. There's a restriction: you must pay an H 1b employee what the Department of Labor says is the prevailing wage. You cannot hire a foreign national and say, "Oh, we're going to pay them less than Americans. That is not allowed. It's a very specific process you have to go through with the Department of Labor to say, I am paying either what you guys say is the is the lowest wage we can pay, or if you're actually paying your Americans higher, your American workers, which can include green card holders. If you're paying them more, you've got to pay the foreign national the same amount. So, and that is enforced. There's a whole task force that goes around and visits employers and makes sure that you know the wages being paid, that the rules are are being followed. So you know we saw really intense scrutiny on H 1b visas. Denials went up from 6% in 2015 to about 20% in 2019, actually a little a little more, and we also saw a massive increase in what are called requests for evidence from the government, and and it really just felt and it created this culture of you know delay, defer, deny, like any way we could put off approving petitions. They ended what's called deference, where if you had met the standard once, you know, let's say in 2016, and you had to refile every three years. It used to be if you refiled and nothing had changed, you could pretty much expect to be approved. The new administrator, sorry, the former administration ended the deference policy and said, nope, we're going to re-examine every single case. We saw two thirds of all petitions getting a request for evidence. So, as you can imagine, this created a culture not only of uncertainty but frustration. Right. So, the increased costs for these employers to respond to an RFE would take me 15 or 16 hours. It and it created massive backlogs because these officers who should be focusing on adjudicating were just pushing them back out, pushing them back out, making more work, making the lines longer. So it was a very it was discouraging. A lot of my U.S. employer clients hesitated. They thought you know maybe this isn't a great idea, and it it had a real chilling effect. I think, on foreign nationals who thought, "I want to go to the U.S. maybe get my master's degree, or maybe I already have a master's in engineering or a STEM field, and I want to work there. We saw Canadian or Canada, the U.K. Australia, a couple of other countries saw big spikes in applications from international foreign students, whereas the U.S. has went down, and I just think that was a really unfortunate viewpoint because the talent pool really, really shrank, and bringing the best and the brightest has always been, I think, the focus of the U.S. immigration policy, and felt like we got sidetracked.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, how did you handle like speaking with your clients about these things? Because if you're like on the billable hour and you're constantly having to spend time relearning policies that changed last Friday and refiling things in new ways, what what's that conversation like with the client to to reassure them that it's worth it to either do these things or for them to say, "Hey, this isn't right for us.

Christina Coleman: I mean, and I'll let Katie jump in too. And I think Katie's the same. I I charge a flat fee for most most things, but of course, when you're determining a flat fee, of course you break down how many hours does it take me and roughly try to make it so that you're not going to you know be be losing money, and and requests for evidence are one area where certain lawyers diverge. I charge for requests for evidence because I can't be responsible for government whimsy and general silliness. So I just you know I would talk talk to my client. I would say, look, we do everything. We can to make sure this petition is approvable from the start, and some lawyers don't charge for RFEs, and that's definitely it's like some lawyers don't charge for consultations. You know, it's just a point of how you decide you're going to run your business. But I had a lot of conversations with clients, and I will say, I do always say, you know, because I am originally Canadian. I'm actually a dual citizen now. But whenever bad things would happen, you know, I would be Canadian on that day. We have this passion. Isn't this crazy? Why are they doing this? I don't understand. Most of my clients were very understanding. You know, they knew. They they were very aware. I find you know foreign nationals particularly. They they are paying attention. They are watching all of this, and they know none of them were ever surprised. I would try to work with clients. I do handle some individuals' cases, and you know, I'm not going to charge them for every single minute I spend on a request for evidence. And I try to pull them into the process as much as I can. Like, look, the more you give me to work with, the faster I can write a really good response. And knock on wood, I mean, I I really we had a great record of success on RFEs. This is where the writing and the creativity and and what I feel I'm really good at, you know, would come. This is where you get to like you're arguing, and it's on paper, which is great, and have to go to court like Katie did, and you know, I, you know, we had we had we had good responses, but yeah, it definitely it definitely required some some heartfelt conversations with clients to to you know get them past it. I felt like I wore my therapy hat an awful lot. I see Katie nodding. Yes.

Katie Vannucci: Well, you know, and one of the things that I think about and that I see all the time, or our clients that that might not have an attorney, you know, in in my area, you know, there's a lot of people that are you know try to do things on their own, and and it honestly it's comical because to try to do this on your own, even for someone that is educated and you know English is their first language, and they're like, "Oh, okay, I can totally fill these these applications out. And then it's usually you know fast forward, and they come and see me, and they're like, "I don't understand why my case was denied, and it's like, "Oh, well, did you include this form or this application? Because when you filed, that injunction was lifted, which meant you needed to file it, and it wasn't really clear on the website. But because you didn't file it, now you-they took all of your money and sent you a denial. You know, and it's just one of those things that it-it's a really difficult system to navigate. You know, and and individuals that can't afford an attorney, you know, are really-it's a-they put are put at a real disadvantage because it's really hard thing to try to navigate without good competent representation.

Ron Bockstahler: Maybe what's a couple things that you're doing that your firm's doing that separates you from other attorneys in a similar area?

Katie Vannucci: That's a great question, Ron. I think one of the things, and I not necessarily separates us from other attorneys, but one thing that we take pride in is we are are honest with our clients and we speak directly to them. So I think you know it goes back to that lovely saying of knowledge is power, because when I when I'm talking to a client and they pay you know my $70 consultation fee, you know sometimes within that first five or 10 minutes, I can tell that I'm not going to be able to help this person. You know, because they entered the country illegally 20 years ago. Because of that, they're not going to be able to get a green card through their now, you know, 21 year old U.S. citizen child. So I can tell that pretty much within 10 minutes. You know how, and there's a lot of attorneys that might say, "Well, I'm not going to make any money off of this client, so I'm trying to get this person off the phone as quick as I can. For me, I think the most important thing is is that I'm honest with with my potential client. I let them know exactly what the problem is, and I teach them. I feel a lot of times like I am a teacher, and I explain. Here's what the law is. Here's what the law says. Here's why I can't help you right now to get a green card. And I think taking that time to again build that relationship because I also want them to feel that they were taken care of, that they were heard, that their questions were answered. You know. So even though I'm not going to get a case out of that person right now, again, and I always tell these clients, I'm like, I cannot wait for the day in which I'm finally able to tell you that I can help you. And and what happens, and I see this so many times, is that either they went and saw somebody else, or they saw a lawyer who just told them no and didn't explain it to them, and then they walk down the street and they come across a notary who's not an attorney who says, "Oh yeah, I can I can totally help you, or or they say, "We can try, right? If you pay me 10 grand, we're gonna try. You know, I don't know what will happen, but we can try. Well, for my. For those clients, that's all they want-that hope-and they're like, okay, well, let's try. They-they said that they could help me. That's what I want to hear, and so then they, you know, throw away all this money, and and more than the money, it's that false sense of hope. And so I-I always feel that if my clients can leave feeling that that they understand why, for example, I can't help, or if I can help, that they have a really good understanding of what the process is going to look like. What are some possible bumps along the way? But so that they really have open eyes, and I think that that's the most important thing, and that's something that you know mr. Algren has taught me in the way he has run his firm, you know, since it's since he started, and I think that's one of the reasons we're still in business today.

Ron Bockstahler: Integrity first-that's very important. So, what's the alternative for those that you look at and you say, "Look, there's nothing I can do to help you right now. You know, what do they do, or what can they do? They're still paying taxes, right? They're still working, so they're still paying taxes, which is legal.

Katie Vannucci: Yep, yep, and they file their taxes. So that's what I tell them. I say, keep keep doing what you're doing. You know, keep you know living your life, taking care of your family, paying your taxes, staying out of trouble,

Christina Coleman: staying out of trouble. Yeah, that's

Katie Vannucci: the most important thing. Staying away from

Christina Coleman: the police. Yeah,

Katie Vannucci: don't get don't get arrested. But I I think the biggest thing is hoping that we actually see some comprehensive immigration reform. That we finally see a way under the law that individuals like that finally have a path to be able to do something. Because that's the that's the problem. It's not because people don't want to legalize our situation. It's because they can't, and and so I think until we can recognize that and we can see the humanity in this, that we can finally you know reach across the aisle and and come up with a good bipartisan solution to actually deal with the problem instead of keeping them kicking the can down the road and saying well we'll deal with it in another administration I think we really need to come to to grips with the reality and actually do something to really fix the laws.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Katie, what I'm understanding is we need action through Congress, not through executive order.

Katie Vannucci: Exactly,

Ron Bockstahler: that's what needs to happen.

Katie Vannucci: Executive executive orders are temporary solutions and can do only so much. And I think with a lot of executive orders that we see, it's really, you know, DACA was a perfect example of it. DACA was a band aid. Literally, that's how I describe it to clients. It's a band aid. It is a temporary fix until we can have a permanent solution to the problem.

Ron Bockstahler: But it's it's kept growing through the years because now there's more participants in it, and they're contributing members to our society at this point in time. So,

Christina Coleman: but DACA doesn't you know you don't get a green card. You're still in this state of limbo, and and I was very frustrating to hear people say, well, they should get in line. All these undocumented non-citizens should just get in line, but you can't just get in line unless you are lucky enough to have a very close family member, an immediate relative, or an employer who's who's going to sponsor you. And even then, if you entered, you know, if you entered without status, you can't you can't get there. There's not like oh well, they should just line up like my grandparents did. They can't, and that's why immigration reform is is critical. I mean, we have to we have to have it.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, if we get Congress to pass some laws, are we going to go back to what Christina spoke about, where we had that piece of paper on the wall that told you what to do, and we all just looked at it and we didn't change

Christina Coleman: it? I doubt it. I doubt it. You know, I think part of it's just the the part of it is the the pace of today. I think with electronic, I mean we're Katie and I are laughing because we're waiting for electronic filings. I still file. I still have to file most of my stuff in paper in duplicate. You know I can't. All these attorneys like oh we can just be totally virtual. You cannot be a totally virtual immigration attorney. I mean, until the government, it's like trying to stop a giant ship, right? The way you were talking about law, the Department of Homeland Security is a massive inflated tub that you know slowly, and it has to work with another giant agency, the Department of State. You know that you you can't even you can't get a visa inside the United States. You have to go through the embassy. You have to go through consular procedures. That's a whole nother department, Department of State. They're they're completely different. So the overlap and cross you know between them creates all these amazing issues. I shouldn't say amazing can be very frustrating issues. But yeah, to get two giant agencies to to change. It's it's you know they're definitely it's going to be a long time before we see some of the changes in terms of just just filing a petition.

Katie Vannucci: Yeah, I mean it's just funny like when I say this to other attorneys, you know, and our other friends where I'm like, oh yeah, no, I I actually have to go and physically get this file. Because I physically need to print off all of this application and file paper, and you know people are like, "Wait, what? Like you have, and it's like, "Oh yeah, no, we kill a lot of trees in immigration practice.

Kirsten Mayfield: Are you guys also using the carbon paper? We were told recently about the carbon paper for copies.

Christina Coleman: Oh my gosh,

Katie Vannucci: that used to be a thing. We don't have that anymore.

Kirsten Mayfield: That's good.

Katie Vannucci: Yeah, we used to have to

Christina Coleman: do it on. Used to have to do it on all different colored paper.

Katie Vannucci: So the forms

Christina Coleman: were all on different colors. Each form was a different color. That that did go away. So that that's that's basically the best change since 1998. I think. So I kind of want to

Kirsten Mayfield: go into COVID then. How are you guys handling a year of virtual working being more of the norm? If you guys really can't do that,

Katie Vannucci: yeah, no, that's a great that's a great question, and and I think all of us have had to adapt. and And I personally am so grateful because we did have technology in place ahead of time. We didn't necessarily use it to its fullest because prior to COVID, we didn't work from home. None of us. It was like not a thing. And again, kind of being forced into doing this. And and I laugh because I remember when I packed up my office, we all thought it was going to be for like two weeks.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah,

Katie Vannucci: I was like, I was like, okay, cool. We can totally like make this work for two weeks. We all took home files and work and and all of that good stuff. And now, almost a year later, we're all still primarily at home. But one of the things that we've done and we've realized that we need to do is we all like I have to go to the office. I usually spend one day at least in the office each week because, again, there are just certain things I cannot do remotely. We can't do it all remotely, and that goes from everybody from my paralegals, you know, all the way up to the attorneys. We're usually in the office about once a week, but we've been able to find a way to do pretty much everything virtually. You know, whether it's seeing clients, meeting with clients, preparing clients for their interviews. Again, these were all things we used to do in person, and again, our clients have been super flexible. But thank God for technology is really all I have to say.

Kirsten Mayfield: And for having the infrastructure in place already that your firm was able to just kind of start using, I think a lot of firms got froze. They were like, "Crap, we don't have that infrastructure.

Katie Vannucci: Yeah, I'm super.

Christina Coleman: I mean, we're we're so small that it wasn't that hard for us. And my main office is in a loft, actually pretty close to my house in Ravenswood. So because we're small, we just took turns coming into the office, and we don't have to worry about physical distancing. So being being more nimble, I think obviously gave us gave us an advantage as well. But yeah, I mean, I was coming in and going through petitions and signing stuff and taking it to the FedEx box. So crazy.

Ron Bockstahler: Let's let's jump real quick. I want to talk about workers' comp attorneys. You know, early in the last administration, I talked to a lot of workers' comp attorneys whose business was down 3040, 50% because a lot of their clients were afraid to file a claim. How has that changed, and what kind of a guidance can you give workers' comp attorneys in today's world? Either of you,

Christina Coleman: workers' comp.

Ron Bockstahler: Yes, it seems that what we were seeing in the last administration was workers weren't filing for workers' compensation because of their fear of being deported or oh,

Christina Coleman: undocumented workers,

Ron Bockstahler: undocumented. Yes, yes, yes. So how is that changing now, and how can we talk to those workers' comp attorneys to say here's what you need to be doing, or here's how you can help them?

Christina Coleman: Gosh, Katie, I'm going to punt that to you. Yeah, well, I was going to

Katie Vannucci: say I think, and this wasn't just workers' comp attorneys. I mean, this was across the board in the four years of the prior administration. Someone that was here undocumented lived with this like constant fear because one of the things was under the prior administration. There's a basically ICE or the enforcement agency has a guide some guidelines relating to priorities. So who is a priority to be deported or to be removed from the United States under the Obama administration, the list of priorities was really narrow, and so somebody that was just, you know, a regular, you know, working, you know, father supporting his family, no criminal record, you know, just here working, living their life under the previous administration, under the Obama administration, didn't necessarily have to worry about being picked up by immigration. That shifted literally on day one of the the most recent administration, and they changed their priorities. And they said, you know, we're going to come out with new priorities. Here's our new priorities. It's everyone. Literally, that is essentially what the memo said. If you are here undocumented, you are a priority for removal. That created a level of fear, like unlike anything else that we've seen in immigrant communities. So whether that was, you know, applying for workers' comp, whether it was applying or reporting a crime to the police, I mean, people were deathly afraid of well, what if then the police find out that I'm undocumented, and then then they tell immigration, and then I get deported? Like, I'd rather just not report that crime. So it was really across the board that fear and fear of like you know even things like you know my U.S. citizen children need to apply for the medical card. Well, now I'm afraid to do that because if they ask and they find out that I'm undocumented, will that get back to immigration? So it just created in across the board, really in lots of different areas, that fear that really changed the way people saw things.

Kirsten Mayfield: Hearing about the priority list is interesting because under the Obama administration, didn't he deport like more immigrants than the Bush administration, or in those prior, he actually was. So the fact that there was an even larger shift than we just increased it more-that's that's interesting. So, do you find that? How did your like referrals change? How did did you feel like referrals were maybe not coming through because people weren't going to their attorneys about things, and they weren't coming to you, or did things increase, or what was that like?

Katie Vannucci: No, you know, I would say really, a lot of a lot of things increased. Where a lot of times, because people were living with that constant fear that they really wanted to come and talk to me or talk to an immigration lawyer to see if there was anything that they could do to try to legalize their status because they didn't want to live in that fear, or they were so afraid that they were like, okay, I understand that you know this administration is really out to get me, and they want to deport me. You know, what do I need to know? What are my rights? And and I think that that was a really big part of a lot of the work that we did in that administration was really again focusing on educating the community,

Christina Coleman: and I think we also saw a lot of people who maybe before would have said, "Oh, I can do this myself, saying, "You know what? I don't want to. I don't want to mess this up. I want to do this with an attorney. And yeah, a lot of a lot of calls with people who just wanted to know if they had any option at all, or at least what what we could expect from a new administration, we I definitely like Katie was saying a lot of like you know hopefully this is going to change you know keep keep keep hope up you know eventually this will will hopefully change but we were I would say except with the exception of last year, obviously with COVID, despite the sort of culture of uncertainty, we're actually busier, and a lot of it was dealing with increased government pushback and having to do more to prepare for everything. So, in in some ways, my brother is quite a cynic. Was like, oh, must be good for business. I said, yeah, but it's bad for the country. So you can drop that out

Ron Bockstahler: too. So when I'm kind of looking at this and I'm comparing it to young black males in the inner city, say the Austin neighborhood, and I work with a group called the Justice Renewal Group. And one thing that most people I realize most people don't know is they don't know what it's like to live in fear. So you know, with the three three strikes you're out rules, you know your your life's threatened by a gang. You go get a gun to protect your life because that's the world you're living in, and then you get arrested for having that gun, and all of a sudden that could be your sex strike. I mean, you you just get caught in a system that's really really bad, and it's bad for your your mental health. This is the same situation that so many of these DACA or just immigration people in general are living in, and most of our country, I don't think, realizes what it's like to live in that type of fear. We live in general, like we we have rights, right? We believe that everyone in this country has rights, but we don't know that they don't.

Katie Vannucci: You know, it's interesting. I I just talked to a girl this morning, and she's a college student getting ready to transition to her four-year program, and she was calling to ask about DACA. And unfortunately, she doesn't qualify because she wasn't here. She she missed it by about six months. So even though she got here when she was eight, kind of based on the requirements of DACA, she was she got here too late, and it was one of those things that in in talking to her and talking through all of this, and she's like, I'm I'm spending you know all this time and energy focusing on getting my degree and working hard to go to school, and all I can think about is that when I graduate, I'm going to have to get a job working at a restaurant, and why and why am I doing this? And and that just breaks my heart. I mean, and and I told her, I said, well, you don't need to worry about that now. You've got two more years to go. So your job right now is to focus on school, and the hope would be by then that hopefully we we actually have something that that has changed that's going to allow you to get the ability to work here in the U.S. But it's. That fear of like, and also that that why why should I even bother, right? If I'm not going to be able to to get a job in finance, why should I go to college?

Kirsten Mayfield: So, Katie, you're you're a self described optimist, but it seems like mental health comes into play for both of you guys because this is a very stressful one because changes just in the past four years have been so crazy. I mean, staying on top of that, and then you're dealing with really emotional situations for your clients. How do you guys kind of center yourselves, keep yourselves on the right track, and and all that in the past maybe decades? Honestly,

Christina Coleman: I mean, I think lawyers overall, as you guys are probably aware, are under so much pressure. You know, there's so many mental health issues, substance abuse issues that we see and have, you know, had some some experience with seeing seeing colleagues and friends struggle, and you know, immigration is adds that whole. It's so hard not to take on the anxiety of your of your clients, and it, you know, it's a. I would say it's a struggle. I I don't want to compartmentalize. I don't want to push away that that connection with the client. But I also have had to go moving from what I would call sympathy to empathy. Been listening to Brene Brown a little bit lately, and and just trying to, you know, not take it on as as trying to empathize and and keep that as a I don't even know, but maybe more of an objective rather than taking it on personally. But you know it's hard. I definitely this last year, you know, have just been trying to remember, like take a break, go for a walk, you know, spend time with your son, enjoy the small things. So yeah, it's it's it can definitely be be tough.

Katie Vannucci: I think for me, one of the things that I've I'm lucky to have, and kind of going back to the fact that we have such a great supportive community, is talking about it. I think you know the my colleagues at my office. I mean, a lot of times in our weekly meetings, we like go around and we just talk about you know what we've seen that week, and and to be able to talk through it, I think with colleagues that understand and can relate to you know your own feelings and your own you know just going through it and processing it. Work working with asylum seekers is especially difficult when you're hearing you know the trauma that they've gone through. It's really hard to not take that you know take that on yourself that kind of secondary trauma. But again, I think really talking about it and not shutting down, and and also I just like what Christina said. I don't ever want to be the sort of attorney that doesn't care, right, or that just can turn it off and and forget about it. That's just not me. That never will be me. But I think learning how to to deal with it, and for me, it's talking about it is really really helpful.

Kirsten Mayfield: That's great to hear. Your firm has a built-up structure for that too. Has it been like that at all the firms you worked at, or how long have you been at Algren?

Katie Vannucci: Well, I've only been at Algren, so there we go. Yeah, so just there. Well,

Ron Bockstahler: we're running out of time, so we'd like to finish with one final question, and I will start same question for both you. We'll start with Christina. What is the one thing in the business of law that you would like to see changed?

Christina Coleman: Wow, there's so many choices. But in terms of the of the business of law, you know, I think it's really reforming legal education to some degree. You don't really learn the business of law in law school. I think there's still some looking down on the idea of law as a business. You know, I definitely feel there's a lot of excellent scholarship at at you know, especially the higher tier law schools, and it's there's a lot of great that comes out of it. But you don't come out with that kind of that sort of business acumen and the practical skills that a lot of a lot of clients need. I know in other countries, specifically Canada and England, come to mind. They have a shorter substantive program, and then you can apprentice their article to learn the practical skills. And if you think you're going to go into an area that that lends itself to running your own firm rather than being in a giant firm. Learning those business skills are huge, and as somebody who basically learned as she went, we used to call it we're we're building the plane and flying it at the same time. I think you know that's I. I think maybe you'd be able to even choose an option, right? I want to go the academic route, or the you know the appellate. I'm going to do the appellate brief. I'm going to go that way, or no? I know I want to get down to dirty, and I'm going to be doing it this way. And then you would have that option to to learn more of those those hard business skills, you know, before you. Before you finish law school,

Ron Bockstahler: might be the best answer I've had to that question since we've been doing the show. Thank you. Oh, Katie, now the pressure's on you. Well, I

Katie Vannucci: was going to say, I mean, I echo Christina because I and I and I don't think it should be a choice in law school. I think everyone should learn it because I never ever envisioned myself having to deal with any of the business of running a law firm. I just wanted to be a lawyer. I didn't even know that those things were there or those issues. And and again, I've had to learn as I go. And really, all again, I care about helping people. And so now, actually, having to think about okay wait a minute though I have a staff of 50 people and we need to keep the lights on and you know dealing with payroll and things that I've never ever learned about and just kind of figuring out figuring out as we go even running an IOLTA right and and and using QuickBooks and accounting software to manage our trust account. I mean, again, I never thought that I would have to deal with this, and I think even if there was an option, you know, to do like a course like that, everybody had to do it to kind of learn the ins and outs of a lot of those things would be so critically important, and I think relieve some of that stress that comes along with it because instead you have people like me that are like I don't know how to do this, and then trying to figure it out or spending time and energy trying to figure it out when really I want to be spending my time and energy helping my clients navigate this crazy system.

Kirsten Mayfield: So at Michigan State University, they've kind of done a similar thing. Now this is your BA BS stuff, so it's not you know the level of a law degree, but they did engineering plus business. So you're doing both of these things. It's a single major now, so sounds like law needs something kind of kind of similar.

Ron Bockstahler: We had to get that Michigan State plug-in. That seems to be yeah, had

Kirsten Mayfield: to plug that in real quick.

Ron Bockstahler: Plus, we learn how to turn over cars during championship games and stuff like,

Kirsten Mayfield: and burn copies and throw them in the

Ron Bockstahler: river. Christina Coleman, Katie Vannucci, thank you for joining on the show. You guys are both very, very positive, which we really, really appreciate, especially knowing that the difficulties that are out there that you're dealing with on a day-to-day basis. So, kudos you for the strong mental health that you got going, Christina, what's the best way for our listeners to contact you?

Christina Coleman: You know, I usually I'm very responsive to emails. I would just email me. It's at [email protected] or you can visit our website www.rcimmigrationgroup.com

Ron Bockstahler: Thank you, and

Katie. Katie Vannucci: Same thing. Email is the best way, which it's kvenucci viaz in Victor A N N U C C I at Ahlgren A H L G R E N law.com or our website www.ahlgrenlaw.com

Ron Bockstahler: Thank you very much. We've been listening to the 1958 lawyer. We've had Christina Coleman call Christina if you anything on employment. HB one does immigration work, and Katie Venucci contact her for anything with family immigration. So thanks for joining us, both. We appreciate having you on the show.

Christina Coleman: Thank you guys. Thanks for having us. Really great experience.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in the show notes.