Lori Levin: From Gov. Prosecution Work to Running a Solo Practice

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. All right, welcome to the show. I am Ron Bockstahler, your co-host,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I am Kirsten Mayfield, and we have with us today Lori Levin. For over 20 years, she was a prosecutor at the Cook County State Attorney's office, and she's been running her own criminal defense solo practice since 2009. She's an incredible advocate for her clients. They describe her as compassionate, candid, and knowledgeable. But her work doesn't stop there. She's also active in local, state, and national bar associations, working on such items as criminal and juvenile justice, mental health, and women's issues, Lori. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Lori Levin: Oh, thank you for having me. I'm very happy to be here.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Lori, in our country, about 72 of the people that need legal representation, and primarily in criminal law, cannot afford it. What are you doing that's changing this? Because I know you're out there representing a lot of people in this field,

Lori Levin: well, at this point, although I've had other roles in the past, at this point I am just trying to do my best to represent my clients and let get the word out what I do. But I strongly advocate their positions and try to get their cases resolved in the best manner possible.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, that wasn't much of a softball to start off with, I suppose.

Kirsten Mayfield: What are you doing to change the world? I think you know that's insight to just how he thinks of you, right? I read your website and read your LinkedIn, and it's just so apparent that you're out there and you're trying to make lives better for the layman just by your feedback and testimonials. So maybe it wasn't a softball, Ron, but I think it was an insightful hardball.

Lori Levin: Well, well, thank you about that. I mean, I've worn different hats throughout the years, and initially, as you said, I was a prosecutor. Then I was the head of a state agency dealing with criminal justice issues for the state of Illinois, the Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority, before I opened up my private practice. So I still deal with. I've dealt with process issues on all fronts, whether it be through the bar associations, whether it be as a prosecutor when I helped start the mental health courts as a state director to help fund and expand the mental health courts, and now I have clients who use the mental health courts, and I work through the bar associations to try to get appropriate legislation passed, and have other issues. And when I do see systemic problems, I do bring that up to the appropriate people, if it, in fact, would assist my clients. So maybe that's a better answer to your question.

Ron Bockstahler: Let's go back to where this all started. You're from Chicago, but you went out to Washington D.C. to go to college or go to law school. I'm sorry. Tell us about your experience at Georgetown University and the work you did while you were a student, and what led you to state state's office.

Lori Levin: Well, I was very lucky. I went to Georgetown, and at that time, Georgetown was in the forefront of clinical education, and so I was lucky where I, as the first semester, I not only had trial advocacy, but I was appointed through the superior court to represent clients on my own, dealing with misdemeanors and working then with the public defender service to deal with post-conviction relief. I was then one of four people chosen to work at the U.S. Attorney's Office at the Eastern District of Virginia, and they shockingly let me try two jury trials-one on my own, except for a minor witness in federal district court. I would say, working at the U.S. Attorney's Office, I was bidden to be a prosecutor, and then I came home and worked at the state's attorney's office, working my way up to be a first chair in a felony courtroom at 26 in California. And then I became the head of first the mental health division, and then the seniors and persons with disabilities division at the state's attorney's office. Before I was appointed by the governor to be the executive director of the Illinois Criminal Justice Information Authority, I did that for a few years. I then opened my own practice, and frankly, this is the most rewarding part of my career because I really like helping people, and I especially like helping people who've never been involved in either the criminal justice system or, as you know, I also deal with people who are being investigated by the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, or maybe indicated and help them with their administrative appeals. So I love this because I love my clients. I love helping them, and I love using my experience to be able to do

Ron Bockstahler: so. So let's take this in pieces. Let's start with your. You got some amazing experiences while you're in law school. So do you have any advice for young men and women that are they want to go to law school or they're in law school? How do they engage in some of the work you did? What's you know? What's your advice to how they can become you?

Lori Levin: Well, I don't know if they want to become me in particular, but the one thing that I do advise is they want to get to know their professors. They shouldn't be afraid of going or intimidated of talking to their professors if, in fact there is a clinical education program, that is always a great way to get on the ground training in whatever sphere, whether it be appellate advocacy, whether it be criminal justice, whether it be-I mean, Georgetown has a series clinical programs. I know UCLA has a series of media law clinical programs. I mean you want to be able to if you can get experience that's great, or you can go the traditional route, which was not my route to becoming the summer associate, which then would give folks a good leg up, especially at the larger firms. And as I said, that was not what I wanted to do, but it is a way to get your foot in the door and then get a job. I mean, because frankly, these days that's what is important. I mean, it's getting a job, being able to pay off your loans. Get a job you

Ron Bockstahler: love. You got to have the passion for it, or you get burnout. And honestly, you're just not going to be an effective attorney.

Lori Levin: Correct. Correct.

Ron Bockstahler: All right. So we got that. I wanted to make sure we talked a little bit to that because you got an amazing experience you had during law school, but then 20 years as a state's attorney. What's some highlights? And first, I guess reason is why'd you join? Why'd you join the state's attorney's office? First question.

Lori Levin: Well, I mean, I was working at the prosecutor's office. I was working for the U.S. Attorney's office in Alexandria. I wanted the trial experience. I wanted to be able to help people. Some of the cases I tried. I had a woman who was. I prosecuted a woman named Dorothy Williams, who was a serial murder and robber of senior citizens.

Kirsten Mayfield: Oh wow!

Lori Levin: And I did that before I was the head of the Seniors and Persons with Disabilities Division. She is serving now a life sentence, so that was one of my cases. I mean, it seemed that at that time I did get a lot of senior victims. I did get a lot of folks who were alleging mental health defenses. I now am on the other side, and I do have people who have mental health issues. But that was-I mean, I would say Dorothy Williams was one of the highlights, as well as as I said, I was in the planning group to help start the first felony mental health court diversion court in Cook County at 26th Street. It's now spread out throughout the county and throughout the state. And to me, going and the court actually started after I was already at the criminal justice authority and I went to a graduation, and it was really amazing how the help with drugs, the people who were co and had co-occurring disorders, wound up getting on the right path, and how their lives were turned around. And these were folks who 30 years ago. Might have gotten locked up, or the criminal justice system might have thrown them away, and now they wind up getting jobs, getting help, and it it really was rewarding.

Kirsten Mayfield: Can you describe for me, because I'm I'm more of a layman here, what the differences between this mental health court and the system they would have been put into previously.

Lori Levin: Well, so I have a gentleman right now who's in mental health court. He had to be screened. Sometimes there's diversion. Sometimes they need to do a plea and they don't put a judgment on it, and that can be vacated. And he's given services, and assuming that if he completes these services, whether it be making sure he's on his medication, making sure he's not drug dependent, but some folks are making sure they go through drug tests and drug withdrawal, et cetera, making sure he gets either education or work. It's a little bit more challenging during the pandemic. At the end of his two years, his conviction will be vacated. In the past, 30 years ago, we would have gone to trial. In his case, he may or may not have been found not guilty, but he wouldn't have been getting services. And without getting into reasons why we did this, because there were some other collateral consequences if he would have been found guilty and he wanted to get the services, so we went this route. This is for his betterment, whereas probation may or may not have changed anything, and then at that point, 30 years ago, it would have been permanently on their record on his record. Now almost every everything in Illinois at some point might be sealable as opposed to expungible. Expunge means it goes off your record, and for him it will be expungible. Sealable if you get probation now, and that's something more recent, means that jobs are not supposed to be able to get it, but law enforcement would get it.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, how do you create a whole new court that just sounds like you know the legal system doesn't change? Everything's kind of the same. Everyone argues. How did you do that? That's a real change.

Lori Levin: Well, my presiding judge did it. We were part of it. We brought it to him. My boss and I, when it was Richard Devine, was the state's attorney, brought it to Judge Paul Biebel, who was then presiding judge at 26th Street at the Criminal Court. He also was approached by TASC at that point, the treatment alternative against street crime, he convened then a task force of various people from the whole legal community with respect to the prosecutor's office, the PD's office, drug treatment, the drug courts, and he-we worked out parameters. Frankly, some of the parameters that I insisted on as a state's attorney, I'm sorry about now on the other side, but because they were fairly strict on some cases. But it was the beginning of the whole balanced and restorative justice process, now there are. I mean, my client who's in mental health court is in mental health court in the Skokie court, which is presided by Judge Lauren Edidin, and he's getting the services he needs through that.

Ron Bockstahler: So I'm almost in shock. I'm hearing some good things are happening in Cook County. I don't hear that a lot. We've had the wrong people on the show, Kirsten.

Lori Levin: Actually, there's a new court which I have not been involved with in the West Side, where Judge Evans, Chief Judge Evans has started it for young adults for balance and restorative justice. Whereas, in fact, they get they go through certain services and a certain routine that those things will also be expunged. I have not had any of my clients go through there, but that is the root and how a lot of things are going at this point.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Lori, isn't that modeled after the the courts in California came up with a program like that? I know the Simon Wiesenthal Center was behind supporting something of that in California, but the biggest issue I've heard from attorneys is their client. Have to plead guilty to go through the

Lori Levin: program. It it depends. It depends. I mean, like I said, and and the my client in mental health court, they rarely did it, but they gave him the ability to be diverted without pleading because pleading, even with a vac, have it being vacated was a problem, but that's the whole thing. For the most part, these folks plead guilty. There's no judgment on the finding, so it's not a final finding. And if they complete the programs, the plea is vacated.

Ron Bockstahler: And if they don't complete the programs,

Lori Levin: then they're found guilty. So it's a risk. It is a risk, but you know, as a good defense attorney, you explain that to your client.

Kirsten Mayfield: So you brought up earlier that like COVID was causing some issues with getting a job, and so if that's built into being able to pass through these programs, are the courts making changes for the pandemic to not stifle people because it's hard for just anyone to get a job right now?

Lori Levin: Well, I just know for right now I have only one person in mental health court, and suggestions are being made to him so that he's not isolated and he's following through with them. Nobody really expects him to get a job at this point, and that's not really one of his requirements. If, in fact, this was more normal, it might be, but yeah, not in this situation.

Kirsten Mayfield: That's nice to hear that that that's being taken into play. They're looking at it because Ron's like right. We, I mean, maybe it's a it's more of a reflection on our states, Ron, that we're talking about depressing things and where things aren't changed. But it's nice to hear the other side of the coin.

Ron Bockstahler: You know, we're just hearing so many things with the injustices, the discriminatory practices that exist out there, and a lot of them in our criminal justice system, and and some of them I think are pretty evident. Others, you know, you wouldn't think about them if you don't ever experience them. Lori, I got to think that you you see a lot of things that might lead you to have an opinion one way or the other on are we discriminatory in our criminal justice system?

Lori Levin: Well, I mean, I think that's pretty much obvious. I mean, I know that even when you know a decade ago, when I was director of the criminal justice authority, we in fact did a study on racial discrimination disparity for charging on juvenile and the juvenile justice system, I think that that's something that everybody has to fight against. I'm not necessarily in the position to do so now because I represent individual people, but. that's certainly something that the bar associations, you know, with my work through there, and that the bar and the legislature is being more aware of this. But there certainly is a lot more work that needs to be done. I

Ron Bockstahler: mean, what's going on with the expungement of marijuana convictions in I want to say Cook County, or is it all of Illinois?

Lori Levin: Well, it's all of Illinois. It's my understanding that the state's attorney herself has taken this on, and that they're just doing this on their own. I also think, though, that if people have convictions, they should, at some point, even if they get notice that it's been expunged, that they should make sure that they're fingerprinted and that the city of Chicago and the state police do comply with these orders, because that's. that's one of the things that I find when I represent people who are for expungement or sealing petitions, I always follow up, and that's why I think sometimes you need a lawyer to do this. I always follow up and make sure that I get compliance notices from the Chicago Police Department, or the Evanston Police Department, or the Lagrange Police Department, or wherever in Cook County, as well as from the state police.

Kirsten Mayfield: So I kind of want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the logistics of being a criminal defense solo practitioner, especially because as you brought up, you need to pay off your student loans. But as Ron brought up, we need to help change the world and we need to do things that we love. So, you in your testimonials, you had a lot of feedback that. You were very clear about what you were billing people, and that they didn't. They felt like they understood what they were going to pay and and what they were going to receive. And you were always knowledgeable and candid and wonderful. And that's an interesting. It was interesting feedback to read because that's obviously so important for criminal defense because these people aren't a bunch of rich people were they're they're laymen. So how do you how do you want handle billing structure with people when you know that they aren't necessarily having have enough money to to really fight these things? And then a kind of piggyback on that is what's it like running a firm? Is it really profitable, or you feel like you're you're like trying to to just you're doing this because of altruistic purposes, I suppose.

Lori Levin: Okay, I'm not doing it for altruistic purposes at this point. And luckily, my student loans were paid off a long time ago, and so I don't have to worry about that. With regard to my criminal clients, you know, I, you know, it it depends on, you know, you learn in private practice, and I was lucky that I was an experienced lawyer when I opened up my own practice, that I knew how to practice law. So then the issue was learning how to operate business, and that was more challenging because I had been a public servant before that, and as you said, I had been altruistic, and essentially I felt like somebody else was paying me, and I was working for free. And then I had to realize I wasn't working for free. I am an attorney. This is my business, and so the issue is is that in general, I don't do pro bono cases. You know, I I am pretty clear with my clients how much things are going to cost. If it's an investigation, whether it be my criminal investigations or my DCFS investigations, which are sometimes the same, that's hourly because I never know how complicated that's going to be, and as I said, I also deal with DCFS cases where people are being investigated, and sometimes they're put on the state central registry as a child abuser, and they want to appeal that, and those I also charge hourly. So it's a little bit of learning a business. I had another experienced defense attorney pull me over it aside and said, "Lori, you're in business, and you need to bill. And the first time that I quoted somebody what I was worth it was and they said yes it was refreshing but but now I expect it so so I don't work for free I don't work altruistically on occasion if I decide to do something pro bono and something that I decide, not that somebody asks me to do, the one thing I also found out is that people who value you value your services and value what you put out for them?

Ron Bockstahler: Absolutely. I used to, gosh, a mentor of mine early on would you know always tell you the free advice is worth what you pay for it, and if you're going to have legal representation, which in these cases as you're talking about, you need legal representation. You know, the money cannot be the number one driving issue. I might have read it somewhere, and something I was reading about you is when this is your life. This is, are you getting locked up, or are you going to be free? And so the price, you know, pay what you need to get the right person representing you, and in this case, you're the right person. So,

Lori Levin: thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: Now you're the recipient of the Matthew Maloney, is I'm saying that right? Yeah, at the ISBA, I guess what led to that.

Lori Levin: I was nominated, and they they chose me. I mean, you know, I was nominated for that, and I also was nominated to be a laureate, which was even more so. They don't give out the laureate awards every year. The last time they did it was 2017 when I was one of them, and one of the other award winners at that point was the recently retired chief judge of the federal district court. So I. Been very lucky to have been nominated by my peers for some pretty nice honors.

Ron Bockstahler: You're being very, very modest. I'm feeling like I'm in that commercial with Lionel Richie where they're trying to get him to say all night long. Do you guys remember that? No,

Kirsten Mayfield: no, it

Ron Bockstahler: was like a chip commercial or something, and two comedians were trying to get him to say, and all night long, you know, the song he sang.

Kirsten Mayfield:

Yeah. Ron Bockstahler: So getting Lori to talk about herself is like the same thing.

Lori Levin: Well, I mean, you know, I'm not lucky. You're not

Ron Bockstahler: lucky. You're brilliant.

Lori Levin: Thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: Clearly, you're getting, you're being recognized by your peers because you're passionate about what you're doing.

Lori Levin: Thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: And that I think you're not going to say it, so we'll just say it for you.

Lori Levin: Thank you very much. You're very kind.

Ron Bockstahler: Now you actually represent a lot of different, a lot of different cases because you got white collar crime you work with. Is there anything that you prefer? Is there any case type of case that you're like, yes, this is going to be awesome.

Lori Levin: You know, I'm not a prosecutor, so I don't think any case is awesome because this is something where people are in trouble. I mean, and so that's not awesome. I mean, it's you know it's a question of wanting to help them, wanting to make sure that I commercial the resources to do so, and that I'm the appropriate person for them. And if I'm not, I I feel free to recommend other folks if I don't think that I'm a good fit.

Kirsten Mayfield: Can we go into maybe your personal mental health? Because so many people I've spoken to who do what what you're doing, you know, it's not fun. It's not awesome. You're watching people whose lives and their futures are at stake. How do you how do you stay? I mean, you're you're such a delight to talk to. Nothing but smiles. How do you stay upbeat on that? How do you let it not get you down? Is it because? Well, actually, no. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna postulate. I just want to know. What do you do? Like, is it just in in you?

Lori Levin: You know, I think I've been doing this for a long time, and I think I've learned from that that I need to put a premium on my mental health. I think that when I was just prosecuting murder cases, it got to me in a way that I didn't appreciate until I stopped prosecuting murder cases, so it's a function that some of the people I represent are facing very serious consequences. Some of the people I represent are facing consequences that are serious to them, you know. As my grandmother used to say, the difference between major surgery and minor surgery is when it's happening to you. So, so it's a function that I try to, I try to make sure that I'm grounded, that I do things that will take me away from the law at times, you know. And I'm very lucky; I have a really good support network. So that's just a little bit about me, and it's interesting you're bringing this up because I have a I'm mentoring a young lawyer, and our next conversation is going to be dealing with mental health. So you know how you keep yourself grounded, and while you practice law,

Ron Bockstahler: so it's it's not like the TV shows we watch. I think Matthew McConaughey wasn't he a from a defense lawyer at one, and it seemed like he was working 24/7 and making no money. So it's always this passionate person, and it's always a major case or major issue, as you say. Someone's it's their life that's kind of at stake. How do you turn it off? How do you go home for a dinner?

Lori Levin: Well, I mean, you know, it it's it's not easy. I mean, and yes, some if I wanted to, I could work 24/7 and sometimes I am. I mean, and I try to reserve my evenings if I can to people who are facing emergencies or my family, and you know there are times you don't turn it off. That's just a function of being an A an A type personality who devotes a lot of attention to their. Clients, but at the same point in time as I say to my clients, please respect my time because if I'm working 24/7 I'm not going to be good for you as well as other folks. And I tried to reserve my nights and weekends to, you know, frankly, I was watching a video like Saturday for two and a half hours on a case. I mean, it was a video interview. I mean, what they call a victim-sensitive interview for two and a half hours on a weekend. But because I pace my time and I ask people to respect me. I was able to devote the time to that client's case on a weekend where other folks were calling.

Ron Bockstahler: That to me, I don't know if that

Lori Levin: answers your question.

Ron Bockstahler: I just look at it. It's the toughest thing. I'm an A personality, and I, you know, when I'm working on a big deal, it's in my mind. I was swimming yesterday, and I couldn't get spreadsheets out of my out of my head. I kept forgetting what lap I was on. I'd stop and look at my watch. It's it drove me nuts, and so I couldn't even imagine being in your shoes and saying, "Okay, now I got this major case. It's someone's life's on the line, and I got to I got a life also. So I got to I got to leave, or I got to you know separate my times. It's that to me is just amazing mental discipline.

Lori Levin: Thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: So let's kind of talk about it. I want to go back. I'm always about the criminal justice system and what we can do to improve it, or what's broken with it. I guess. I mean, what do you see that needs fixing?

Lori Levin: Well, obviously, there's the issue of the racial disparity, and I'm not sure. You know, I mean that deals with training. The other thing deals with people who have mental health conditions. When I was at the state's attorney's office, they and with the authority, we had funded these CIT training officers that for a while the Chicago police had, and then they stopped, and now they're doing it again. So I think really you need mental health responders as well as officers who can understand what's going on with mental health issues, I think you also have to realize that children are not adults. They may not appreciate the consequences of their actions, whether it be a child acting out in one way or another, whether it's a child acting out and committing a violation of the law, or whether it might be a child alleging things that may or may not be true because they're upset with somebody at a time. So I think we have to acknowledge that. I also think that the court system going in the way of balance and restorative justice. We've done that for juvenile court for a decade or two, but now with Judge Evans with this West Side Young Adult Court, that winds up being where, lots of times they have these things where the victims meet with the offenders. A kid who throws a rock at some old lady's house may not understand how petrified that old lady may be until they sit down and he realizes they're really a grandma. It's not just somebody irascible. I mean, that's really balance and restorative justice. So I think that that's a positive move. Also, I'm not necessarily. I was a prosecutor too long. I can't say that I'm necessarily in favor of abolishing prisons, like some people are, but there's got to be a better way. Not everybody who deserves to be incarcerated.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, there's different levels of rehabilitation. You don't need to necessarily be in jail.

Lori Levin: Well, I right, but our prison system doesn't really rehabilitate anybody. They incarcerate people.

Kirsten Mayfield:

Yeah. Ron Bockstahler: So, what about probation? Didn't California recently pass a law that limits the length of time someone can be put on probation?

Lori Levin: Okay, I don't know about California. I'm

Ron Bockstahler: sorry. I practice law in Illinois. I believe that they have, and I think it the longest you could put someone on probation in California now is two years. And I know many other states are considering something similar. Would you be? I mean, do you have an opinion on that?

Lori Levin: Well, Illinois, Illinois people go on probation. It depends on the. It depends on if a. If an offense is probationable, it depends on the the class how long you can be on probation. So sometimes it some and most people may get two years or 30 months. Some offenses may be up to five years, but California system and our system is really different. I you know it's kind of like I try to we're living in like I mean that's like a totally different jurisdiction and then you have the federal jurisdiction so you really have like multiple you can sometimes take an idea from a different jurisdiction so such as the mental health courts that started down in Miami, I believe no Broward, I believe, by a judge named Ginger Lerner-Wren. I mean, who actually I'm connected with on Twitter, and anyway, she started this on misdemeanor courts, and then it spread throughout the country, but interestingly enough, Cook County only has felony mental health courts. So in the misdemeanors, lots of times those folks are either getting diverted or are not being processed. And hopefully, like I said, we are now Chicago is now resumed CIT training, the crisis intervention training of the officers. Lots of jurisdictions have multidisciplinary teams. Mental health, like Denver's doing that now, having social workers going out. That may or may not be appropriate depending on the situation, but to have the multidisciplinary teams, sometimes a social worker can best diffuse the situation than the police.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, it's different training, right? I mean, crap.

Ron Bockstahler: This is fun stuff. Let's get back to your practice. We only got a few minutes left, and I want to you cover different areas, so kind of want to lay out why people would reach out to you. What type of criminal law or areas of practice will you take? Cases will you take?

Lori Levin: Okay, well, I handle like very serious cases. I had someone recently with the mental health defense for an aggravated strangulation, I have people charged with sexual offenses. I have people charged with reckless driving. So I mean, it runs the gamut on my DCFS investigations. Sometimes there isn't enough evidence to charge somebody with a crime, but that somebody may still be indicated for DCFS. So those are crimes against children or minors. I mean, not all these people are. They might be teenagers, and I handle those administrative appeals. I think I indicated that if, in fact, it's being referred to juvenile court for the child protection side, I don't do those matters. So, if in fact a parent is being charged with abuse or whatever, and they want to remove the child. I don't go into juvenile court. Roy,

Ron Bockstahler: we could sit and talk to you for another 10 hours, I think, and and have make it make it a very interesting talk because there's so much that we want to get from you and learn from you. But we don't have that kind of time, so I'll finish up. Like, what's the one thing in the the practice of law that you would like to see change maybe over the next five years.

Lori Levin: Well, I think in the practice of law, I think if if you're dealing with the criminal justice system, you know, I already alluded to it more of a balanced and restorative justice approach. I think with regard to the practice of law, I mean, I think that people are lucky to have somebody like you there, because I, you know, we haven't said this, and I don't know if only the people that you have here are model clients. But the fact that I am, I've had access to your paralegals. I've had access to the administrative staff. You make and Amata makes being a solo practitioner a lot easier. So I needed for one of my DCFS matters something a probate court, a guardianship for various reasons for a defense for one of them, and I have enough of them that I don't care that I say that. And I didn't have to go downtown the daily center because I had Amata's good paralegal staff to be able to do that. So you make what I do easier, and being able to deal with especially. During times of COVID, to be able to practice remotely as well as in a brick and mortar office.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, we appreciate that. I don't even know that a lot of our listeners know that I own Amata, so we don't. We don't always talk about. We really want to highlight you and what you do, and and we want we want the attorneys that are listening to call you when they have clients, or that they need assistance with, and that's really what it's about.

Lori Levin: Thank you. And I have a lot of divorce clients calling me because there may be DCFS allegations. So I have a lot of divorce lawyers calling me. Rather, I have a lot of people calling me whose clients may be charged with criminal issues. Sometimes I get lawyers calling me because I do deal with some orders of protection, you know, civil cases with regard to that. So you know, I'm more than happy to talk to anyone. And like I said, if in fact if I'm not a good fit, I do have a huge referral network where I could send somebody to someone else.

Ron Bockstahler: That's where we could say you're a past president of the Women's Bar Association. We didn't have a chance to really get into some of the things we can do to improve the life of women practicing law. Maybe that should have been my last question. Like, what is one thing you would think that we could do to help women continue practicing law instead of of quitting when they have a family?

Lori Levin: Well, I think you know that you know that could take a long time. That's a whole nother

Kirsten Mayfield: podcast.

Lori Levin: That's a whole other podcast. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, like I said, I think people need people need resources. People need women. You know, when I was coming up in the state attorney's office, I wasn't part of the first wave, but I was part of the second wave, and we still faced a lot of challenges. Now, most of the prosecutors, a vast majority, are women. I think that the law firms are still having issues. The larger law firms in breaking. There's still a glass ceiling there. You know, criminal law is, I guess, been easier if I find it kind. I could probably give you all sorts of stories about stuff that happened along the way, but they're not for the most part. It's not happening anymore. Or when it does happen, people are dealing with it straightforwardly, as opposed to learning how to charm your way out of a situation.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, Lori, thank you so much for joining us today. Best way to reach Laurie?

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, so we've got a phone number. You can call her at 312-972-3756 723756 or shoot her an email at levin. That's l e v i n at lori l o r i levin law.com and that will also be in the show notes, so you don't have to think too hard.

Ron Bockstahler: So Ron Bockstahler with me, Kirsten Mayfield, and we've been talking to Lori Levin on the 1958 podcast. Thank you very much for joining us, 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Lori Levin: Thank you so much.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.