McKenna Prohov: Encouraging Clients to Think With a Legal Mindset

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that is your host Ron Boxdollar. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer. I am your host Ron Boxdollar, and with us today is McKenna Proholve. McKenna is the founder of Law by Design, a Chicago-based legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists, and startups. McKenna, welcome to the show. You know this is a really interesting area of law. You're dealing with a lot of creative types, individuals that are on their own. So let's kick it off talking about how you get your clients into a legal state of mind to use legal agreements versus a handshake, which is very common in this industry.

McKenna Prohov: I think that the positive way to spend, you know, kind of getting a legal agreement behind your transaction, whether that is a contract or maybe you know making a partnership by operating agreement official or something, what it's doing is saying, "Hey, I take you seriously enough, or I respect you enough to invest in getting something written down that really speaks to the the realness of what we're doing,

Ron Bockstahler: right? You know, I almost want to say, would insurance because like for insurance, like if you're a designer or guys, think of it even even an architect of some type, don't you got liabilities out there? So if you if your insurance is not going to cover it, if it's not in writing, I'm guessing anyway. So is that one way to talk to your clients? Like, if you can't get the insurance to cover any, you know, malpractice or any concerns, is that one of the things that you want to throw out there?

McKenna Prohov: Yes, definitely. You totally can be liable, and and even if it's not your fault, and it's with an architect, higher liability, right? Higher risk, higher reward. With an interior designer, their relative risk reward on a project, you know, maybe a bit lower, a little bit less liability, but but it's still there. And not only that, but even if something isn't your fault, you very likely will be named in a conflict, and that's still time and you know your time and fees and headache, and you know possibly kind of emotional or business fallout from right fallout of the relationship or something. So it is good to look at those things to make you know for any kind of professional to make clear right that where an attorney can be on their side, and you know look out in in a contract to kind of carve out those liabilities, liabilities, and just say, hey, just so we're clear, client of mine, you know, other person, I'm I'm not liable for these things. If something happens, you have to, you know, you go a different avenue. Or I'm not, you know, I'm not liable for more than the amount of the proceeds from insurance. If it's when it comes to insurance, or you just exclude yourself. You know, you agree to exclude yourself from certain things entirely, like any consequential. Just know that working professional is not going to be responsible in that case.

Ron Bockstahler: So it's interesting. I've read some studies about entrepreneurs. We're going to see a lot more entrepreneurs, especially as we coming out of this pandemic, which I would think would open up your client base opportunities.

McKenna Prohov: Yeah. Yes.

Ron Bockstahler: And word of mouth is how you're getting your business now. But I mean, how are you going to be able to bring on? I mean, how are you going to reach more people as they're moving away?

McKenna Prohov: Well, it's funny. I was thinking about this this morning before before our talk, and one thing that I think and that you know, I've been finding, and I think the answer to this is getting out and making connections. I mean, I've been struck by the power of of connecting with people IRL in real life, as we've been fortunate enough in this country and in this state recently to have things open back back up after the pandemic, the networking events that I have attended, I've just been you know blown away by the result of the unplanned you know spontaneous and and collaborative conversation. Just literally putting your body in a position to meet another human being and learn something, and have to say, you know, what it is that you want and need, and have someone generate, you know, based on their experience and their network, an avenue that might benefit you or be mutually beneficial. So there, to me, you know, there that's never, that's always been the case, and that always will be the case. And it's because it speaks to something fundamental about who we are. And it's one of the reasons why I was thinking about this too. And I was like, you know, I would totally back this up in front of Elon Musk. I would totally say this and and go like, if he disagreed, I would go head to head. On this statement, which is that that's why still today there is no computer that comes close to the power of the human brain. So the human brain is is the the most super super you know computer that's ever existed, and it is exactly for that reason what I'm talking to you about that is something you can't put an algorithm on when you when you're talking to another person, and you know the thoughts that are generated as a result of those conversations. So basically, you know, networking, networking, networking is the answer, and just you you can't do it within the four walls of your home. We, you know, are are in a place where we can facilitate and expand opportunities through technology, but but that cannot be the the only way. There is something you couldn't network and have it be nearly the same rich tapestry, you know, on the phone and on our computer, as as it is when you go out. So reaching people, you know, is about gathering. I guess this is a really long answer to your question, but we must gather, and and we will gather because people crave that. And you know, the wonderful thing about options, and and when times are good, right? When we're all fortunate to to live through good times, which means you know our our country's not in a state of war, we are not in a pandemic. You know, barring those things, we each as individuals can choose how much we want to engage with those things. Hopefully, they will be going on, and you know, for in for one week, you know, McKenna might feel like she needs more rest and stay home, but Ron might say, "Hey, I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna check out that event tonight. You know, at at 5o'clock and it's it's great, and we can all right dip in and out. It's not about going, going, going and forcing yourself. It's about opportunity and making sure though that you're that you're really getting face time.

Ron Bockstahler: So let me you kind of bring up a whole nother point. So let's kind of let's bank into do we come back to the office? Do we stay out of the office? This is a mix.

McKenna Prohov:

Yeah. Ron Bockstahler: Where do you see it going?

McKenna Prohov: Well, I think I guess I'm going to take the easy way out by saying you know I think that I think that options are are key because here's the thing. I what I'm talking about when when when the thing that happens, and I I don't I haven't heard a real succinct. You know, I'm not a scientist. I haven't heard. I'm sure there exists. I haven't heard a real great way of saying you know talking about what that process is. I just know that it happens. We all know. You know, we experience that when we talk to each other in person, when we meet up, it's hard to put words, you know, on that phenomenon. But, but because of that, it is important for people who work together to see each other, you know, in person. And I think that employers do have a real valid concern or vested interest in having their employees work right in a space because of that, because you know employers know that. At the same time, I think that in some ways that that can be. That's also not entirely how it works because there's a lot of power in choice. I think that the opportunity for a team, for example, to do what they need to do or to have that experience to maybe be more productive because they're meeting together doesn't necessarily have to be because an employer told them that it was going to take place in a certain, you know, very expensive location, you know, somewhere. That team can absolutely accomplish that in a lot of different ways, and so I think just expanding the way we think about people meeting because you know I'm I'm not for not doing it. I don't really believe in everyone working in isolation in their home behind a computer solely, but but neither do I think that they need to be required to work in an office space for as many logging as many hours there as has traditionally been done, and in fact, I think that that can start to cut against the productivity that I'm talking about, where we're together. You know, in some ways, people might check out in that situation, right? And they're not as effective. So, I think, and I don't know if you agree, but I think the conversation is already there about something in between. Right, people are like, "Oh, well, maybe, yeah, let's meet up, but maybe not in the same way as we were. Do

Ron Bockstahler: you think this is going to be generational? Is it going to be different between different generations?

McKenna Prohov: I don't. don't know. You know, I could see it, but but in my personal experience, normally I would say yes because I think there's a big difference between like this generation and just the one before it. But in the working from home. I've heard a lot, me personally, of people from both generations say that they enjoyed it. So I don't know that the pressure to gather in office again the same way pre-pandemic will be coming from the generation that had the longer experience, right? Having to be there, having to work in an office x amount of hours per week, you know, show up. I actually don't see that. I just feel like they wouldn't even really be surprised anymore. They're almost like, okay, yeah, this is the thing now. Like, what this is the way it's going. This is the conversation. So,

Ron Bockstahler: I love what you're saying because I'm seeing the same thing. I'm seeing what I'm going to call the 50 and older generations,

McKenna Prohov: right?

Ron Bockstahler: That have embraced enjoying kind of not coming in, and you know, really surprised me. I mean, look, I'm a traditionalist. I came into the office every day, and I'm in that 50 and older category. But honestly, I'm looking at it, going, I kind of enjoy working from home, spending more time with my family.

McKenna Prohov: Yeah,

Ron Bockstahler: but like you said, I do like coming in occasionally and going to the events and doing things of that nature. But I'm finding some of the people younger than me are coming in even more because maybe they're isolated at home.

McKenna Prohov: Yes, yeah. I you know we're we're such individuals. I think we need to remember that every every single person is an individual, you know, experiencing different things, and I think you're right. That's absolutely a factor. I mean, some people for some people living alone, I think having to be home only to work was was incredibly difficult, and so I think that there needs to be right, yeah, space like the opportunity to to gather to come in, for sure. But maybe maybe not the requirement, and maybe that's the difference. And I,

Ron Bockstahler: we'd mentioned mental health, or we didn't. I think you might have wrote something about it. And I was reading that, and I'm thinking to myself, let's chat about mental health and how it's affected the lawyers, the younger generation, people younger than me, the attorneys that are younger than me, and how how their mental health is, the state of their mental health coming out of this pandemic, and what do we need to do to improve that? Because you know we've already had major issues in the legal industry,

McKenna Prohov: yep,

Ron Bockstahler: in mental health, and for years ignored it.

McKenna Prohov: Yes.

Ron Bockstahler: So you know, give me your thoughts on on mental health.

McKenna Prohov: Well, I think it's just what you said. First of all, it's been sadly lawyers have been so adversely impacted by poor mental health, and I was talking to a business coach recently about this, who is a practicing lawyer as well, and said, you know, I don't think it has to to be that way. The it doesn't in terms of how we can do better by not ignoring it and being, you know, creating resources for for attorneys. So that that is totally you know has nothing to do with the pandemic and needs to be right in practice and in place in any time, but you know anyone who I think was so say you're a lawyer and it was adversely you know impacting your mental health pre-pandemic, it probably was exacerbated you know during the pandemic. And your question, what do we need to do now. I think that's such a good question, but I kind of think it's the same thing that I hope was happening a little bit before the pandemic, which is, you know, for example, bar associations bringing this to light and and being, you know, something like a bar association being kind of a leader in that way for for lawyers, right, or or somewhere where lawyers can connect, or being kind of someone that even if you're not a member, every lawyer is aware of their state bar situation, you know, association. Those associations are also also responsible for like continuing legal education credits. So if you only engage with your association for that reason, you probably every lawyer has, you know, had some kind of contact with their bar association. So those are real good places to start, you know, having talks about it, webinars or in-person meetings, or seeing what they can do to right engage with professionals like therapists to come and talk about these things and to say, hey, if you are wondering where some resources are for these kinds of things, if you're experiencing something, here they are. And I've been encouraged. I'm actually attending a conference for for lawyers and mental health through my state bar association in Illinois in in the fall, and so you know just that, and I'm just one person, and it's you know this is an anecdote, but it's but to me that you know I'm I'm encouraged by that, and so I just think we need to do to do more, and and we can all do our part. I mean, I you know I just as an individual I can write about this, right? Somebody. Might read it just to know that we're all thinking and talking about it. I think you know helps people to feel more connected, less alone, and to instead of like suppressing what they might be going through, to say you know what it's not like I even have to tell anyone, but like maybe for me, I should reach out to someone to address this, and I need some help, you know, and I can talk to a mental health professional.

Ron Bockstahler: Pandemic has it been a catalyst to make changes in the legal industry, which is notoriously slow to change.

McKenna Prohov: Yeah, I think so. I think that it has, you know, brought to light that there's been a reckoning on on that level, maybe with what it means to just be a person and to experience, you know that that it matters what you experience on a on a day to day. That you might have been able to think up, you know, more about what what your values are. Think about new ways of doing things, so if you were in a traditional, I guess what I would call a traditional legal practice environment with you know high billables or six minute increment, you know billables, two examples of things that lead to you know high stress, or maybe just you know hopefully not, but maybe worked with someone you know coming from a different place or mentality who was a little bit of a toxic employer who was less of a mentor and someone who employed you but you know really was because they have a vested interest right in in making money and I get it but really squeezing you as a person and kind of right causing that stress and I think that you're right. The legal profession has been slow to change, but like with so many things, I do think that the pandemic has been a catalyst for looking at those things which aren't necessarily specific to law and lawyers, but have been very entrenched in the legal world. And you know, I just from my own standpoint, I can tell you conversations with you know my peers, whether they're with a firm or they're on their own, just the fact that they are you know they're placing a high value, they're placing a premium on the way that they feel now, and I mean that in a good way. I don't mean that they walk into a place of employment and expect that place to make them feel good, you know, it's it's not like that. What I mean is that it's more of a self, you know, self awareness in a good way. What what do I want and need? How how could I change this? I can continue to be a lawyer, but you know, to do it in a way that is better for me as an individual, or just to you know feel much more confident and comfortable walking out of a situation that doesn't work and saying, you know what, I have skills and I have something to offer. And if I go to work every day and I'm, you know, I'm being treated badly, I am going to leave. So those are the kinds of things. Yeah, let's

Ron Bockstahler: let's bounce around a little bit. It seems like that's what we're doing today. Let's talk about women in law because what you said just made me think of, all right. It's a bad situation. I should leave, but that's not historically what's happened,

McKenna Prohov: right? And

Ron Bockstahler: when this is over, do we have short memories and we go back to the way it used to be?

McKenna Prohov: I don't think so. I think that that's what the prerogative of every generation to learn and grow and do it differently. That's what it means to be a different generation. You know, things move in different directions, and I think it is, and it, and it, and that that won't go away. And you know, I think that me personally, I think that it's better than ever for women in law. I'm inspired by my peers, my female peers in law. I don't see women. You know, as far as the big firms, I'm not. You know, I haven't worked in one, and I don't know if women are leaving at the same rate. I'm not sure that those numbers have changed much. So traditionally, in those environments, what they have found is that while they start with a, you know, a 50-51st to five to seven-year, you know, associate class, that number drops significantly. There are, you know, way fewer females at the partner equity partner level. I can't speak to that. I haven't, like I said, never been employed by by big law. But for all the rest of it, for all the other firms, and there are so many, it's not just big law. I see women thriving, and I think that that has a lot to do with with community and cultural support behind. Right, that lawyers are people too, just like everyone. Everyone is a person, no matter what you're doing. So when you start thinking about it in terms of that, you can really start to make right the experience better.

Ron Bockstahler: So will we start shaming bid law firms when they they continue to have a ceiling on the income of women?

McKenna Prohov: Yeah, I think you know. If so, I went to a conference. The statistic I just I just quoted to you. I went to a conference that was relatively recently. I mean, I think within the last five years, where they said, "Look, like here's where big law is failing: is that women, you know, at the at the higher levels are are leaving, and it's and it's just men, and there aren't as many partners or equity partners. I think that's still true. That's why I say I just, you know, I went there relatively recently, within the last like few years, and so I don't think it's changed in a few years. And I do think that that's something that that we can criticize. They they really need to look at that and look at why and what they can do to so that that you know isn't the case anymore. It's just not. It just seems so outdated to me to have that kind of phenomenon occurring, where you get to any level and you see kind of one type of person in a leadership position. Is there a reason? Not good.

Ron Bockstahler: We could talk marketing and websites and photos that we see in the majority of law firms, and it's let's face it, it's a white a group of white guys, Unknown: right, standing there in very nice suits, and that's the that's the lead. That's what you go to their websites. That's what you see on a billboard. That's you know, it's still pretty prevalent. That's what everyone's seeing, and then I think it's time to change that.

McKenna Prohov: Yeah, I do too. I absolutely do too. And I think the first step is awareness, and like like this podcast. I mean, this is just it helps with that, and also right, just that we're talking about it in other spaces and other legal spaces too, at you know bar association meetings, things like that. Because the first, the very first step to changing any problem is being aware of

Ron Bockstahler: it. Yeah, I think it's you're 100 right. I think it's very people are. It's on top. It's on my mind, right? And I'm an old white guy, so it's got to be on so many other people's minds. Also, at least that's how I'm looking at it. So hopefully, we'll continue to talk about it. Let's go back to about your firm a little bit, and let's kind of let's let our listeners know the things that you can do for their potential, their friends, their clients, that they can't do for them.

McKenna Prohov: Yeah, I really I see myself as a trusted business advisor. I love, I'm very business oriented and love helping my clients, you know, strategize and think about I can bring the legal lens perspective on building, you know, a business and growing it in a good way. So, for example, I'm constantly finding that my conversations are dipping in and out of business decisions and and something that is just legal. Trademark is a really good example. You know, when I'm talking, I can advise on what makes a strong mark or a weak mark, but then that kind of leads into the conversation of, well, how do you build a strong mark? You know that's something that, as a business owner, you could like be sitting around the roundtable with your team, you know, talking about, and a lawyer wouldn't have to be there. But when it comes to protecting, then it's like, oh, you call your lawyer, and your lawyer says, oh, well, wait a minute, you know, I have some, I have to tell you about this, so you can't just create anything. I have to tell you about what would be right able to be protected or not. So, so something I really like doing is is really making a connection with my clients, getting to know them, you know, listening a lot about what they want to do, and just being willing to spend the time to to help them or to get to know them to figure out, you know, the particular issue, and I always say, you know, I can give you the legal, the legal side of it, but I will also talk to you about, you know, the sort of the larger, you know, issue going on, and I love to do that, and and that's why I love being in in the startup space, and it it's just it's been a really good fit. I often tell my clients, you know, I'm starting up alongside with you, so I can relate. You know, I'm yeah, I'm you know growing, trying to grow, and I don't mean grow by like expand by get employees, you know, a ton of employees, but I mean grow my practice to keep going, to keep working with people like you. I say I'm doing that, and that's those are the same feelings, and the things going on there are the same for you if you're trying to grow. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, like a new, you know, nail salon or something like that. So it's really fun.

Ron Bockstahler: What about alternative fee arrangements? Do you work with the clients on alternative fee, or is it everything billable hour? I mean, I didn't know what you're.

McKenna Prohov: I am all alternative. I'm so flexible, and something I've been thinking about recently, Ron, too, is I think that there is a shift and needs to be maybe to think about lawyers. So I'm going to speak to lawyers a little bit more now by saying you know maybe think about what you know versus the time that you're spending on something. And I like you know I don't have all the answers. I don't think that there's one way to say, okay, you know, I'm going to charge like this and never change it. But I really do think that lawyers bring tremendous value, you know, to their clients. And really, what you want to get paid for is what you know. And so when you start thinking that or thinking that way, then you know that there are. Different ways to do it, and I'm I I'm flexible. I I never want to lose business, so I want my clients to know that I will work for them. So I do have an hourly rate, but I have worked flat fees and I've done service caps as well.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, one thing is you know as an entrepreneur and having started a few companies, I always think, man, I would love to have the attorney in in those early meetings, so we're strategizing, and they understand where we're coming from. And then when we got to put this into paper, you know, it's easier, and they understand the flavor of what we're trying to accomplish. But I don't want to pay that hourly fee,

McKenna Prohov: right?

Ron Bockstahler: And that that I think holds back so many entrepreneurs to say, "Hey, let me bring the attorney in when I should bring them in, because frankly, I can't I can't afford it?

McKenna Prohov: Yeah, exactly. I think you're exactly right, and I never I don't want people to think like that, and I think that that's why. I mean, I've never just told a client this is my hourly rate and that's it. I literally have never done that. I let them know. I like I said, I do have one, and there are instances when I might just be keeping track of my time, depending on what the service is or the work, and but I let them know that, and and everything else is, you know, like you said, an alternative situation. I think that that would be the very best for business owners and for someone starting up is to say, yeah, call the attorney. Like they're going to be part of our business team, you know, they're not some like stuffy, sterile like person to deal with at arm's length that I have to, you know, deal with my business. They they should very much be sort of part of the team.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, absolutely. Let me let's kind of break it down. Our last final question I always like to ask guests, and then I'll give you anything you want to add. Would be what's the one thing you want to see changed in the business of law going forward? The

McKenna Prohov: sooner that clients, the sooner that the business community thinks of lawyers as a trusted business advisor who you know is a key ingredient in growing their business in a good way, the better. And your podcast is helping with that.

Ron Bockstahler: Awesome. Anything you want to add for our listeners before we have to go?

McKenna Prohov: Just that it's been really enjoyable, and and you know I probably to do this podcast today with you, and and I've probably made this clear, but in case I didn't, I love talking to and meeting new people. So, you know, I am available and would love to have any kind of meeting with anyone. So, thanks. I

Ron Bockstahler: take it back. I'm not ready to go yet. I got one other question. It was curious question, and I know you're you're kind of focused on creatives and in the entrepreneur world. You do some marketing on Instagram, which I think is unique to a lot of law firms. Is there a reason you chose Instagram? Is it just your clientele you feel around that that medium?

McKenna Prohov: Yes, it's both. I do. You know, a lot of artists have an account, and but really, that kind of goes into you know what the real answer is is that Instagram is the most heavily used platform out there right now. And so, if you're going to do if you're going to engage with one social media platform, I would say it should be Instagram. And in fact, through private messaging on Instagram, I have engaged with clients, so I would recommend it, and and that me choosing Instagram was was through my research on on finding out what people are on the most.

Ron Bockstahler: Wow, that's interesting.

McKenna Prohov:

Yeah. Ron Bockstahler: Well, McKenna, thanks for joining us. We've been listening and talking to McKenna Prohol. You can reach McKenna at Law by Design. That's www.lawxdesign www.lawxdesign.com. Kenneth, thanks so much for joining us today. Really appreciate having on the show, and wish y'all luck in the future.

McKenna Prohov: Thanks so much, Ron. Been a pleasure.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. If you'd like to hear more about Ron or Amata, go to amadaoffices.com All the links are also available in the show notes.