Michelle Lawless: Relief Through Technology. How Family Law Clients Benefit from Tech-Savvy Firms.

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Voxdoller and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

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Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer. I'm your co-host Ron Bockstahler,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I am Kirsten Mayfield, and we have with us today Michelle Lawless. Michelle was an attorney at Schiller Du Canto and Fleck for 18 years, a partner for 10 years, and she just recently opened up her own firm during the middle of a pandemic, which is a bold move. June 2020, she identifies not as an attorney who has a solo practice, but as a solopreneur who's a lawyer. She practices in divorce and family law. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today.

Michelle Lawless: Thank you. It's great to be here.

Ron Bockstahler: So let's start off with a really serious question, Michelle. You received your undergraduate degree at Indiana University, home of the four and zero Hoosier football team.

Michelle Lawless: Yes, the four and zero Hoosier football team. It's hard ending this podcast by saying that. Hard

Ron Bockstahler: to imagine, but we got Ohio State coming up this weekend. What's your favorite memory of Bloomington?

Michelle Lawless: Oh wow! So I'll be like just really really honest with that. When I think about college, I was a huge huge basketball fan. So anyone that knew me in college will probably have a smile on their face when they hear me say the William Tell Overture during the basketball games in Assembly Hall.

Ron Bockstahler: I'm gonna have to take that one to my wife since my wife's a Hoosier. She

Michelle Lawless: will know it's a very very it's a great time out in college basketball, and you can't really you can't really explain it. You've just got to kind of experience it. But saw some really really great games when when I was there. Was really really lucky, and it was just a great time.

Ron Bockstahler: Awesome. Do

Kirsten Mayfield: you still go back and see some games?

Michelle Lawless: I do. Yes, I do. All

Ron Bockstahler: right. So let's talk about what did you set out to accomplish when you became an attorney.

Michelle Lawless: I think you know, like most law students, when you first get out of law school, the practice of law is overwhelming, and I, you know, fortunately, we had some, you know, I had some pretty great experiences. I actually clerked for a family law judge. I'm sorry, a family law attorney during law school. So that was my first kind of foray into family law. And then I went to law school in St. Louis. And when I came back to Chicago, I got a clerkship with a judge, which was just really a great opportunity to see the trial court level up close. And I actually got to clerk in both chancery and domestic relations, and that kind of was formative in me realizing that family law was where I wanted to be. I really liked the business of helping people and seeing how the lawyers in family court really had the opportunity to impact someone personally. So that was kind of my journey and and how I found family law because I often get asked why in the world would you want to do it and I'll acknowledge that it's not for everyone, but it it definitely suits me.

Ron Bockstahler: Awesome! So you spent 18 years at a prominent law firm, and you what motivates you after 18 years to start your own practice?

Michelle Lawless: You know, I think that you're just really like looking for a great opportunity, and that is to be able to kind of continue to service your clients in in a different way, and you know, kind of become kind of in charge of your own path. I think that's what's really great about being a solo is that you now. I mean, I have so many options available to me, not only just in the clients that I take, but you know, setting my own fees, setting my own rates, running a practice the way that I want to run it, and you know, just the opportunity. You just kind of feel like the opportunities are endless.

Kirsten Mayfield: Seems like one of those things that you decided to go into was. More into the mediation side. You're not on your website. You're not just an attorney. You're also a mediator. Can you speak to the attorney-assisted mediation model, or how it's different from you acting as a mediator and what you do in that kind of form too?

Michelle Lawless: Sure. So if I'm the mediator, which I really enjoy being the mediator, I will literally be the neutral, so I'm the person that's talking with the clients and facilitating a conversation to help them reach resolution of their issues. And there could be lawyers involved with that, or it could just be the couple themselves. If I'm involved in attorney-assisted mediation. I am the lawyer for one of the parties, and I'll attend mediation with the mediator and my client. And the purpose of attorney-assisted mediation really is to help clients go into a mediation feeling like they have a lawyer who they can answer questions, who they can ask questions of, and who can advise them as to the law in the mediation. Because sometimes parties, especially if you have one party who's very knowledgeable and maybe one party who's a little less knowledgeable, there can be a little bit of a power imbalance there. So bringing the lawyers into the mediation has some real benefits because it allows both parties to have equal footing in the process and have counsel. The other great benefit of it is that the lawyers are in the room for the mediation. The drafting of the agreement is always much easier because everyone is on the same page when the memorandum of understanding comes out and the agreements are formalized. The drafting is much more efficient.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, how did you get into focusing on mediation at this level? Was this something that you explored when you were at the larger firm, or was it something that you felt you could only explore when you went solo? Oh

Michelle Lawless: no, I think I definitely did a lot of attorney-assisted mediation at the larger firm, and it took a while for kind of the family law bar to really get behind mediation. But this has kind of been a growing trend for a number of years. We've had a number of judges retire and come off the bench and become mediators, so that got a lot of lawyers quite honestly, interested in in taking some very highly complex, difficult cases to mediation, and I think you know to be to be quite honest, clients want an alternative to litigation, and there's a number of reasons for that. It's not only just that litigation is emotionally difficult; it can be protracted and inefficient, but it can also be incredibly expensive. And so, clients were also coming and asking for, you know, alternatives to just filing and and going to court. So, yeah, this is this is I would say it's been a progression, and certainly COVID has also helped spur on I think even like a second wave of people interested in mediation because you know we can do mediations virtually now.

Kirsten Mayfield: So Illinois law requires mediation and parenting matters. How did that come around, and why is it required?

Michelle Lawless: So that has been in place literally forever. That you had to go to you had to go to mediation for your parenting issues before you could go to court, and the reason behind that is just really that I think the I was not around when when this rule was was put into to place, but because it's been there for for a while. But the idea is that to try to figure out what issues really need to go to court and really need to be in front of a judge, because people can come into a divorce case highly charged and very very positional, also very scared, and may not really understand what they need to focus on in order to reach an agreement. So you know a lot. For example, well, the word custody has actually been eliminated from the divorce statute, but when it was in effect prior to 2016, people would come in not really understanding what that word meant, and it could be a very you know that bred a lot of fear, very highly charged, and mediation is a way to get everyone to calm down, to have a discussion and figure out what issues with respect to their children can they agree upon, and what issues maybe can they not agree upon, and what needs further discussion. And most people, not all, most people can agree on major. Decisions for their children. That's decisions related to education, medical, all healthcare decisions, religion, and now extracurricular activities. Most parents can agree on that, and most parents, if even if they don't walk into a mediation thinking that they can agree upon them, mediation helps really flush those issues out and lets them see, you know, are they are they really that far apart? So that's one reason is to you know quite honestly not have people in court fighting over these issues relating to their children unless they really need to be, and that doesn't mean that you know there there are going to be cases that have to go to court. There are going to be cases that parents don't agree, and there could be significant issues related to children. There could be some significant mental health issues on the part of one parent, and those those issues will need to go to court. But the mandatory mediation provision tries to help focus just those cases that really need to go to court to end up there. So,

Ron Bockstahler: can you talk a little to collaborative law?

Michelle Lawless: So, collaborative law. You know, during COVID, I've actually had an increase in inquiries about collaborative law. But what I'm finding is that you really have to explain to people what it is because you know it sounds nice. Collaborative law. Who wouldn't you know? Who wouldn't want to do that?

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, I'm already like, yeah, that's yeah, sounds

Michelle Lawless: great. But it is a very very specific process. It is governed by statute. Illinois has the Uniform Collaborative Law Practice Act. So what I usually have to do is sit down and explain to people. Collaborative law is kind of an entity unto its own. It's a team approach to a divorce, and that means that you know at the very very basic level, both parties will have lawyers, and then the lawyers will decide how to build the team, and the major components of that team will be divorce coaches, a financial neutral, or a child specialist. And once the team is built, once it's selected, everyone signs what's called a collaborative participation agreement, and that is kind of the core central tenet of the collaborative process. Is that participation agreement? It outlines everyone's obligations to each other, which include full disclosure of all information, both financial and anything related to the children, confidentiality. and a number of other things, but the really big thing is the disqualification clause, and the purpose of that disqualification clause is so everyone understands you are entering into this contract where the team is going to help you resolve your divorce case, and you and your spouse are absolutely 100% committed to not going to court. And if you do go to court, you do decide to stop the process. Everyone engaged in the collaborative process will not be permitted to represent you or move forward in the litigation, you literally have to start over with litigation counsel, and the work product that is used in the collaborative process can also not be used in the litigation. So it is, it is a very distinctive process, and both parties absolutely have to be 100% on board that they have no intention of going to court. And what does that mean? Well, that that means that you know there's going to have to be some compromise. No one is going to get everything that they want. No one usually gets everything that they want in a divorce settlement to to begin with, but the collaborative process contractually obligates the parties to stay out of court, and that's the kind of tenet, the central tenet of collaborative.

Ron Bockstahler: So, do you actually start to sign these documents to be do a collaborative deal prior to filing initial filing in the courts.

Michelle Lawless: Yes, in fact, in collaborative, you usually don't file a case until your agreement is signed, sealed, and delivered, and then you'll file the case to get the final proof update. But there are some exceptions where you can file in order to preserve rights, but that would be discussed with the team, with the professionals, but collaborative cases-you usually do not file your case until your agreement is finalized.

Ron Bockstahler: So, unless I'm hiding something, I mean, it sounds like the a better way to go, meaning hiding something financially where you're going to bring in forensic accountants to really dig into assets.

Michelle Lawless: It's a great way to. So I think if everyone can be reasonable and there's no extenuating circumstances, and by that I mean if there's if if one party has some serious mental health issues, it can you know it can be an impediment to the collaborative process. So we we usually get maybe some a coach's input on whether we should sign that participation agreement, but for a lot of people, it works really well. You know, if they are reasonable, everyone is on the same page of disclosing everything, and they're both willing to compromise. It's it's a really great alternative.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Michelle, it seems like we're talking a little bit more about mental illness than we would have in the past, and I know we're calling it a coach, but is a coach also a psychologist?

Michelle Lawless: Yeah, the coaches are usually clinically trained in in some aspect, whether they're a therapist, a psychologist, a social worker. They've got some clinical background to help identify things that lawyers, quite frankly, are not qualified to identify in in those meetings. We, you know, we're trained as lawyers. Even those of us who are trained as mediators who've taken the basic training for the collaborative law practice, there's no substitute for having a clinical practitioner in the room who's able to kind of read what's going on.

Ron Bockstahler: That's interesting. I mean, this country has turned away from looking at mental illness for so long. It's it's nice to hear that that's being talked about now, at least in the family law area. Yeah,

Michelle Lawless: it's definitely. Oh, it's definitely talked about in our in our world, and we we've seen. I think, most. I think most divorce practitioners would agree with me that, unfortunately, during COVID, we've we've seen maybe a little bit more of it than we have in the past, just because people are experiencing incredible amounts of stress.

Kirsten Mayfield: So it kind of sounds like family law is pretty progressive. They're taking into account, you know, the emotions of everybody involved. You've got all these different options from mediation to collaborative law. Is that true, or I'm just I might just not know enough about the other areas of law?

Michelle Lawless: Yeah, I think family law is. We try. I think you know we try. You're still going to have people that are going to end up in court because there is a need for that. But you know, if you get the right team involved, and that doesn't even just mean in the collaborative process, it could also be in mediation. If you get the right people involved that understand and are qualified and competent to be able to handle a very very complex case that may have you know a lot of different highly charged issues, you can keep people out of court. I mean you know I've seen it, and I would I would venture to say most of my colleagues have seen very very successful dispute resolution cases that were resolved by dispute resolution outside of the litigation process.

Ron Bockstahler: So, from a customer standpoint, and we don't need exact numbers, but how much money are we saving? Are we saving 50% by moving to a collaborative law model versus going to litigation?

Michelle Lawless: You know, it's hard for me to. Here's the thing. You know, obviously, everyone asks the two biggest questions divorce attorneys get asked in a consult is how long is this going to take and how much is it going to cost. And this is the best way I can answer that. I I do believe collaborative reduces your overall fees. However, if you get involved in a situation, whether in mediation or in collaborative, where you are having multiple meetings, multiple multi-day sessions, and you are really it becomes you know month after month after month. Obviously, the return on investment is is going down a little bit in terms of the efficiency because the idea behind both mediation and collaborative is that you are able to resolve it efficiently, and I have been involved in both mediations and collaborative cases who that have gone on, you know, for a year, you know, and when you think about that, you you do have to sit there and think. Okay, well, how much money are we saving everyone? I still think you come out ahead because a case like that is clearly difficult, and there are clearly issues that are needing to be addressed and aren't able to just be addressed in a couple of meetings or a couple of sessions, so if you take that type of case and put it in court, you're probably looking at two to three years of litigation, and you're probably looking at maybe double to three times the amount of fees. So it's it's, but the vast majority of people. Can get a case done in a couple of mediation sessions, and you know maybe three to four to five collaborative meetings. So I think those are the cases where you are saving significantly on fees. And I would think that yes, 50% is probably you know it's a little bit of a shot in the dark number, but I would I would just think that that would probably probably be accurate.

Ron Bockstahler: So it's funny we named our podcast the 1958 Lawyer after a pamphlet the ABA put out the 1958 Lawyer and this 1938 Dollar, and that was actually the beginning of the billable hour in the legal industry back around 1960. Are we seeing that with this collaborative law and some of the other tools that are out there, are we seeing a move away from the billable hour to a contingency fee or some kind of fee program, or is that really not having effect?

Michelle Lawless: I don't think that's having. I'll be I'll be totally honest with you. At least in Chicago, I people are doing it. People are doing subscription services and alternative fee arrangements. I'm not seeing that actually materialize with kind of most of the lawyers that are kind of doing the work, you know, I think the the processes by which people are engaging the attorneys are probably going to have the most effect. Meaning, like if you don't just file a case and and proceed in court, but most lawyers are still billing by the billable hour in family law cases right now.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, when you set out to create your solo practice, was there anything that you did purposefully different than how you'd been like set to practice law for the previous 18 years,

Michelle Lawless: so I think the biggest thing that I did was really try to streamline the intake process, and you know it's kind of funny. Before COVID, I was actually when I was at the firm, I was thinking about you know what are ways to make the intake process easier for clients. I had actually spoken to a couple of clients who had told me how difficult it was to almost get up the courage to walk into a divorce lawyer's office for a consult because physically it was a manifestation that their marriage was over and that that was a really difficult step to take was you know making that appointment and walking into to a lawyer's office and sitting down and having a conversation about how to end their marriage, and I was kind of thinking about like are there ways to do virtual consults, and then boom, COVID hit, and I so I kind of like think about just I think the time was right, almost to force our industry to have to adapt technology. I mean, you don't. I don't know that the legal industry at any other point in time has been forced to massively adapt almost overnight. And our industry is traditionally pretty slow to adapt changes, but I think the the Zoom consultation has been very beneficial for clients because they are able to see the their potential lawyer face to face, have an interaction with them that allows them to understand if they can work with this person, if they like this person. You know, what do I want to hire you beyond just the major questions. Are what are your rates? How long do you think this is going to take? What is this going to cost? But it provides them with the ability to do it from home, which has really I think worked well for a lot of people. So I had actually set out to thinking about like what are what are ways that I can make technology easier, and you know, I I don't know if I'm allowed to say what practice management software I use. I'm not sure. Yeah, go

Kirsten Mayfield: ahead. Oh, yeah, please.

Michelle Lawless: So Clio, I mean, has made billing so easy. I mean, I can accept credit card payments with virtually hardly any work on my part, and people are very, very excited about being able to pay their legal bills on files and things like that. And there's there's law pay. I mean, these things have been out there. It's not like you know they they just kind of came came on the scene post COVID, and a lot of people you know, have been for a long time taking credit card payments, but just the streamline of everything, kind of using technology to make things easier. I'm using online forms to capture information that you you need in every divorce case, but you don't want to keep asking people like the names and the ages of their kids and the birth dates. You know, being able to kind of capture all of that information in one central place electronically immediately, and then you know it's very easy to have it populate going forward in in different places. So I think just making things easier on clients was something that I was. You know, really looking to do, and then also kind of, I always prided myself on providing personalized service and being there for clients, listening to them, getting back to them quickly. You know, as quickly as I can. Obviously, when we're in court and mediations, you can't return emails as quickly as you'd like to, but I always really tried to do that. And as a solo, I think that's even more critical because it's me. I mean, the business is me, so I need to provide almost even I look at it like a better client experience because I am the client experience 100%

Kirsten Mayfield: So. So, do you find that that's an added pressure that you might not have had, like that maybe a desire to respond immediately, or you just can you just dive into that a little bit more?

Michelle Lawless: Well, I think look, anyone that goes into family law, they want to help people. I mean, if you're doing this and you don't really want to help people. You're probably not in the right industry. So I think you know, and we deal with people that are in crisis, and we deal with people that are going through a very very stressful time. And so, I mean, one of the things you you have to learn as a lawyer is, you know, how to deal with those emergency situations, and that really just comes with experience, and so I mean, I had that. I understand, you know, how you need to kind of get to the bottom of situations quickly. But I think what has been difficult for me, and I'm still obviously, you know, I'm very early into my practice and kind of on this journey because I, it's me. I don't have an assistant. I do feel like I need to be very, very responsive to people, so they know they're important to me. So they know that I am, you know, on top of their case. And I think that that's a that's a push and pull that I'm kind of, you know, figuring it out right now, you know. If I, for example, tomorrow I have a full day of mediation, and I am going to be, you know, behind closed doors with a client on a online mediation all day. So tomorrow is the day that I'll probably try to, you know, say just stay on top of email as as I can. But I think for the most part, people have been very, very understanding about you know that, and also understanding when it's their turn and it's their case, and I'm either in court or in a mediation or in a collaborative meeting with them. You know, they want my full attention during that time as well, and and they deserve it. They should get my full attention. They're paying a lot of money for those sessions.

Kirsten Mayfield: So you brought up experience, and it brought to mind a post that you made on LinkedIn. You're very active on LinkedIn. If anyone out there is looking for someone to follow, follow Michelle because you'll learn some stuff about how to post, when to post, what what to say. She does a great job. Yeah, of course. I love following you, and I have to say, you made a you made a post about experience in battle scars, and for such an emotional area of law to go into, how does a young attorney deal with not yet having that experience, but yet still wanting to do the absolute best for their clientele.

Michelle Lawless: So the younger attorneys, I think, that are out there interested in doing family law, it is so important. I think to have good mentors when you're younger and to be able to, you know, get that experience. And I and I, what I think one of the casualties of COVID has been, has been for younger attorneys, and especially in domestic relations law, the Daley Center is a daley education, and you, I mean, as a younger attorney, I was in court almost every day, often with senior associates and and partners, watching them work, being a part of a case, and being you know like the person that's carrying the file and being you know the third lawyer on the case, but really seeing how emergencies are dealt with, seeing how difficult situations are dealt with, seeing how lawyers interact with judges, how they position their case, seeing how negotiations are handled in mediation by more senior attorneys, and understanding the strategy that goes into a mediation that may end up back in court, I think I'm kind of sad for those younger attorneys that they're not getting that experience now. But hopefully, this is just going to come to an end soon, and we'll all be able to get back to the courthouse. But I think for for the younger attorneys out there that want to do family law, getting as much experience as possible. Is critical, and you kind of have to jump in with both feet. You have to do the hearing that you don't think that you're ready to do in order to see that you can do it. You just you need to prepare, know your facts, you know, and kind of just give yourself a little bit of grace when you're a little bit worried, or think that you maybe you know in over your head, everyone feels that way. But that is how you grow, and that's how you learn. And those experiences and those battle scars that I was talking about that helps you. It helps you build your repertoire. I think I I called it the bank of experience that you can draw on later, and you know that's not just in family law. That is that is universal. That is that is being a lawyer. That is using that experience to help you you know settle a case that you absolutely know should settle. Even if you're a commercial litigator, you're doing you know, class action lawsuits. Your experience, there's no substitute for that in your practice area. So I think younger lawyers, they just they've got to get in there. And you know, if you're if you're in a firm, you raise your hand, you let people know that you're willing, you know, to work on difficult cases, work on big cases, you know. Work with attorneys that you respect and that you can learn from, and that can you know give you good guidance. And also, I think something that is somewhat undervalued is you can do pro bono cases through legal aid agencies to get some experience that you know, if you're at a firm or you're you're working for someone and you want a little bit more experience, talk to them about maybe being able to do a pro bono case to get some experience on your own.

Kirsten Mayfield: Very interesting.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Michelle, you're a past recipient of the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin's 40 Under 40 Award, and by starting your own practice, you made a statement that you are leading family law on a new way forward. Now, kind of walk us through. I'm a new client coming in. What's going to be your approach, and what's going to set you apart from those larger firms that might have multiple people in support staff?

Michelle Lawless: Well, I think the the biggest thing is you get me. That's the biggest thing. Is I'm not going to, you know, be handing your case off to to anyone. You get me, and I will know your case backwards, forwards, upside down, inside out. You know, I think that's that's the bigger one. Obviously, my rate went down when I when I left the big firm and went out on my own. the The other thing that I really try to do, I've always tried to do it, but now I'm even more cognizant of it that that I'm a solo is when someone comes into me. I try, you know, a lot of people they have ideas how they think their case should proceed. They've done a lot of research online. There's so much out there now for clients to kind of look at and and find and kind of figure out where they think they're going to fall as far as whether they need to go to court or engage in some type of dispute resolution. And I try to listen to them. That to me is the biggest part of a consultation: is listening to what they're saying and absorbing what what I'm not only hearing but the subtext and some of the concerns that they have, and really trying to figure out what process is best for them. and And that may not always happen in the first in the first meeting. You know, we may talk about here are some various options that I think we should look into. But you know, if A doesn't work, let's let's think about B or let's think about C. And I, you know, I always tell people the two biggest factors that are going to really dictate how their case goes are things that I cannot control and they cannot control, and that is one how their spouse is going to act in the case, whether they're going to be reasonable, whether they're going to want to fight, and number two is who the lawyer their spouse hires because if they are hearing something different than I'm telling my potential client, you know, we we everyone may not be in synergy, and if you're not in synergy with a process, usually end up in court. Unfortunately, because obviously court is like the place anyone can go. It's kind of the the open door for for everyone. So I really try to figure out in that initial meeting, you know, what what are the best processes that this particular client can engage in, and then also, you know, how how does that affect their overall fee? At the end of the day, you know if if they don't think that you know mediation is going to be successful and that they're going to end up in court, I'll I'll talk through with them. Well, is it worth trying? You know, because what if you were able to reach an agreement? What if we got to a really experienced mediator, and your spouse got to an experienced attorney, and we were able to reach an agreement. You know, how does that sound to you? And you know, most of the time, people obviously say, "Well, that sounds great. I just don't think it's going to happen. So you kind of have to like talk through. Okay, well, what are maybe some ways that we could try to make make that happen?

Ron Bockstahler: So let's finish it. We're coming to the end here, I got two questions for you. The first one: In 10 years from today, what are the three things you predict will change the way law is practiced? Did I say that right? What are the three things that will change? Give us your prediction

Kirsten Mayfield: in the next 10 years. There's no math in this equation; just a lot of numbers.

Michelle Lawless: So, can some of these be a little bit hopeful on my part. How yes, please. You know, as much as I talked about how much I I think the Daily Center courtroom education is just great for for younger attorneys. I do think, and and this is goes for for you know, I think just nationally, I think COVID has taught us a lot about streamlining processes because we've had to streamline, and I'm I'm hopeful that some of those will stay in place for maybe some of the more non-substantive court appearances that can really help cut down on fees for for litigants sitting over at the daily center to you know get a status date, you know while maybe you know good good for the lawyers is is not always great for the clients. So that would be one to try to figure out. Hopefully, some of these COVID procedures and protocols will will stay for good. Number two, I've had a lot of people-not a lot-I've had a handful of people that are not divorce practitioners or professionals, kind of cynically say to me, "Don't you think everyone's going to get divorced via app in the future? Millennials are just going to want to get divorced by an app. And you know, I think that there is there's a lack of access to attorneys for a lot of people in America, we we all know that as lawyers, we we hear the statistics. There is probably some type of market for that for people who have very very straightforward cases, very uncontested. There there probably is a market for that, and I know there's some apps out there that are kind of, you know, being promoted. So I do actually think that there are there's going to be a market for that, and I think we're going to hear more and more people, you know, take taking advantage of that, especially if if they don't have any any significant issues, and and they can be pretty agreeable, and then the third, I think, is the real obvious one that we just we don't know the answer to it yet. And you guys probably are a little bit more in tune with this than I am. But you know, I don't know what the future of office space looks like. I don't know if attorney offices. I you know I think attorneys will probably always need offices. I haven't talked a lot about that today, but I mean, I got an office. I need an office. I mean, I need a place to kind of have a home base with office services. You know, subpoenas still have to go out by certified mail. I still need conference room space, but I don't know if attorney offices become more for the lawyer and less to like meet with clients. That that to me is going to be really interesting to see how how that is affected, or if in two years we have a vaccine and everyone's back to normal, and we all kind of think like, well, that was just a blip of a year, and you know now we're kind of just moving back into normal. So that I think that's something that a lot of people are kind of interested in watching and seeing how that plays out.

Ron Bockstahler: Interesting. Well, I'll make my own prediction. I will say within 18 months, you will no longer call yourself a solopreneur because you'll have to expand your firm. You know, like Kirsten said, I've been following you and I see some of the stuff you're putting out there, and it's excellent and definitely you're leading the class and what you're doing. So I think it's been amazing.

Michelle Lawless: Thank you so much. I appreciate. We look

Ron Bockstahler: forward to watching you grow. So you know, our podcast is all about change. So let's think business, the business of law. What is one thing you would like to see changed in the legal profession as it relates to the business side of it?

Michelle Lawless: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this question because I know you ask everyone this one thing, and I'm really glad that the the you know if you would ask me this pre COVID, I would definitely without hesitation said technology. Lawyers have to be more. We've got to be more technology, and we've got to we've got to be able to use this to make things easier for clients. Covid has blown that out of the water. I mean, people are-you either have to adapt or you know pretty much not practice anymore. I think that's been one positive thing that's come out of Covid. But you know, one thing that I would probably like to see changed, and I think change is slow with respect to this. But in order for lawyers to be good lawyers and good stewards for their clients. We've really got to take care of ourselves, and I don't just mean us like taking care self care personally. That's a component to it, but I think we as lawyers we also have to like be mindful of our industry, and we've got some serious problems as lawyers with a lot of substance abuse and mental health issues, and I'm guessing COVID didn't help that. And I think that we work really hard, and we're in an industry that is very high pressured, and it's also somewhat of a grind. If you you know talk to lawyers, you know, that get up every day and they service their clients. A lot of it's very, it's very, very difficult, and there have been advances. I've I've heard more people talking about lawyers taking care of themselves, being, you know, but I think we need to continue to talk about that and continue to do better with that, and not always just glorify that attorney that may be working, you know, around the clock, but is not very happy and is going down a pathway that may be not beneficial for them. Because at the end of the day, you need to be your best self to represent clients. I mean, you have to like show up in a healthy way. You cannot show up exhausted all the time, or you know, just pulled in a million different directions. I certainly wouldn't want a lawyer like that, and I would guess most clients wouldn't.

Ron Bockstahler: I think you just opened up a reason to bring you back. That's a great conversation to have. I think it's. I mean, we all need to be talking about it, so we bring more attention to it. So

Michelle Lawless: I think we're doing better, but we can continue to do more.

Ron Bockstahler: Michelle, what's the best way for someone to reach out to you?

Michelle Lawless: Well, probably the best way is my email [email protected] and or my website www malfamilylaw.com I'm you know I'm also on LinkedIn as well, but for direct reach out email or my website is going to be the best way to reach me.

Ron Bockstahler: We've been talking to Michelle Lawless. Michelle, thank you for joining us today. It's been an exciting, very interesting, and informative conversation. So we really appreciate you taking the time out of your day.

Michelle Lawless: Great, thank you so much. I appreciate you bringing me on. Thanks for joining

Ron Bockstahler: us. This has been Ron Bockstahler, 1958 lawyer, and Kirsten. Don't want to forget Kirsten, and we will catch you next week.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.