Odell Mitchell III: Musician, Visual Artist, Single Father, and Lawyer for Creatives

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Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I'm Ron Bockstahler,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I am Kirsten Mayfield, and with us today is Odell Mitchell III. He runs the third in line legal practice, which he created in 2016. Focuses on the entertainment industry. He's a musician and visual artist himself. And before actually embarking on becoming a lawyer, Odell was in the industry, a manager. You were an editor, I believe. Do you have any fun stories for us from your time back

Odell Mitchell III: then? I do have some pretty fun stories, music industry stories for sure. Some of them, of course, you know, music industry probably shouldn't be said recorded, but for sure, like, just it's really interesting people, really interesting times, and so absolutely, if you want to ask more directly in a minute, you're more than welcome to. But I, there, there are definitely some fun times.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Adele, let's kind of talk with you. Had a career for 10 years before you went to law school. So, what prompted your interest in law school?

Odell Mitchell III: Absolutely. So, for me, first of all, thank you for having me. I just really appreciate it. You're such great people, and I'm a fan of the podcast. I really enjoy the episodes that I've caught and have learned a lot from your guests. So again, I'm honored to be among the folks that are here because it's really, really great for both the industry and the world at large. So thank you, thank you very much. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to you know that that journey into law school, it was always kind of clear to me. So we talk about how you know I was in the music industry before, and that is true. So from undergrad to law school was not a direct step. You know I had some space in between where I had a career, and then also during that entire time, I was always doing creative work. So specifically, one of the things that I was doing is I was helping create and record and write music with a lot of other artists, and was always had like a little bit of a business bent to it. So, for example, my sister is a singer songwriter who lives in New York now, but she is a little bit older than me. She's coming up in Chicago, and we would be with her friends, and they would be working on all this stuff, and I would be around them, kind of going, "This is so great, but like, I think there's something we need to be doing here. That's some sort of legal protection or something that we need to be doing. And so I always took it upon myself to go, "Well, maybe I can figure that out. Maybe I can figure out what we need to do to advance this to a higher professional level.

Kirsten Mayfield: So you're the rare creative because that is not a thing creatives like to do.

Odell Mitchell III: It's not. It's and you're you're right that it's rare. I mean that is a function that I often serve in the group. Like any kind of creative group that I'm in, I'm usually bringing this kind of business focus, this business sense to things, you know, this kind of organization, if you will. And so I knew that early on. I knew that that was like something that I loved both of those pieces. And so looking at like kind of the law piece was going, oh, let me see, I can figure it out. And then that launched me into really kind of more I researched it, the more I realized, well, you know, I actually need to go to law school to really understand this stuff because we could never really find anybody who would fit that mold. And so I went into law school at first as a means to an end, you know, thinking, "All right, I'm just going to learn the things I need to learn, and got there, and then discovered that I actually love the law, and so that changed everything in some ways. But I always knew I was going to be headed in a creative direction because of it. So it's an extension of where I was.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, let's talk about creativity. Where did you come up with the name for your law firm?

Odell Mitchell III: Yeah, so third in line legal. So I am Odell Mitchell the third, and so it is an homage to not just my name but also this lineage piece. So I I feel really grateful to be someone who gets to have a very visible and external piece of their heritage as such a central part of them. You know, my father, his father before him. That's really really great. And then, quite frankly, for me as an African American male, we also we usually cannot like look back and see a lot of our lineage or. Harder to do, and so that's something I hold very dear to me-the fact that I have that. So I've always tried to incorporate it somehow, and then additionally, you hear maybe a little bit of the trademark lawyer coming to coming through. It's somewhat arbitrary, but also not hard for people to understand or remember. And so there is a little bit of sticking to it as well. So it works from a lot of different angles.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, that's a beautiful blend between the old traditional way of like labeling your firm, where it's the familial thing. It's your last name. It's an homage to that. That's brilliant. Only a creative could come up with something like that.

Odell Mitchell III: Thank you. You're like you're you're seeing under the hood. So yeah, that's very much what I was thinking.

Ron Bockstahler: So Odell, can you? I don't know a lot about entertainment law, which is to say, I don't know anything. So can you explain what what you do in entertainment law?

Odell Mitchell III: Absolutely. So because it's a great it's a great point. Like the notion of not knowing much about it, because it is really a very large space, but it's one that is not very easy to see into. Like the visibility into it from the outside is somewhat opaque. And then once you get into it, you're like, "Wow, look at all these spaces. So for me, I would say things that are that are good to know is that I'm a transactional attorney. And for those that don't really know, just transactional means like I'm not what you would see on TV sometimes as an attorney, like going to court, litigating, you know, like that kind of the courtroom pieces of it. So most of my attorney work, and there are tons of us in different industries who would consider ourselves transactional attorneys. But for me, most of what I'm doing is much more behind the scenes, and certainly not taking place in the theater of court, but so much of the entertainment industry happens that way. So for me, what I do is I really help people who are doing something creative, like just the most broad thing. If you're doing or creating something creative, some sort of artistry, then I am someone who can help you guide that and help you protect that and kind of see the parameters around it. More specifically, what I do is I tend to often focus. I'm heavily in music. That's where my background is. That's where most of my connections are. That's where my heaviest passion is. And so I do a lot of work there. And then in the day to day, if I'm getting even more granular about it, I look at a lot of agreements. I tend to do a lot of drafting and negotiating of agreements, making sure that they are you know going to be the best for my client, and then also a lot of counseling around that. So similar to how you talked about my creative journey, most of the people that I'm working with, especially if they are direct creatives, their experiences and interaction with the legal field are limited, and they don't really have a lot of knowledge around things. Or even if they do, it's just not a lot of like clarity about how things work because the entertainment industry is notoriously messy. And so I do a lot of level setting, a lot of counseling, and giving a lot of guidance around things. And then the the concrete thing that it usually hovers around is agreements and rights protection for a lot of people.

Ron Bockstahler: So I'll give you a specific, and you, I would like you to explain to me how this works. There was an interview with Sammy Hagar not too long ago, and it was I listened to it actually before Eddie Van Halen passed away. Great loss to the music industry, but he would talk about how Eddie would bring a track of music, I guess, over to his house and say, "You got to create some lyrics to this. And so Sam would say, "Yeah, let me knock out some lyrics. And then next thing you know, you got this mega hit. So how does that work? Who owns it? Who gets rights? How does that all kind of play out in the in the legal world?

Odell Mitchell III: Man, that is a great question and one of my favorites because in a situation like that, like so much of what we deal with, what I deal with, especially these days, hovers around that. Like, who owns this? How do we create it? So, in a situation like that, you know that's a great example of how it often was and is absent there being some sort of clear discussion between Sammy and Eddie about how things would be different. Then they both own it. Basically, they would be co-authors in the work, as we would call it, and the fact that one person contributed the lyrics, and one person contributed the music. That would make them basically co-songwriters. Thus, they both would be co-authors in it, and they would enjoy all the same copyright protections together, kind of in an equal sense. So it's wonderful when that happens and how that is. But it's not always how the case is. But then something like that, absolutely, like that is basically how like kind of creativity comes together and then becomes like some sort of property or some sort of product, even if you will, that can then be protected, exploited, etc.

Kirsten Mayfield: Now, not to flood this whole podcast with our endless questions, I'm sure about the end. Industry in law, but another like example or thought is like the Kanye West stuff, where he launched his own hosting platform, and then you've got like Taylor Swift against her old recording studio. So, are you like an in between for both sides of those kinds of situations? Do you just represent the legal talent? Do you find that there's more contention in these two realms as artists are starting to say like, heck no, I'm the one in charge these days?

Odell Mitchell III: That's really yeah, actually, I so I would represent either of them gladly. If Taylor or Kanye want to call me, Kanye want to call me, I'm happy to happy to be the person too. But no, seriously, like yeah, I do. So it's interesting because as the entertainment industry moves in this direction that it has continued to, and you could argue that a good swath of our world has done this as well. But as things have moved from more analog to more digital, it has opened up so much more opportunity for artists and creatives alike, which means that there are different ways in which they are able to create and exploit their work, which is wonderful. That also means that there are more places where they could have control, but it also means there are more places for other entities to try to take that control. So, in a sense, like you know, Kanye creating like a platform where he's you know streaming. There's all these kind of intellectual property and rights issues that are gonna come into play with that that we may not have seen even five years ago. Or Taylor Swift was a great like it was one of those when all of that came out. I was like, man, I wish I was still in law school. This would be totally like an example that we would have in class. But basically, like that being a situation where you now have a really, really strong artist being able to say, you know what, I want to own my work in such a significant way, and it really does rub up against not only kind of the legal standard and protections that have been in place before, but also a lot of the music industry is kind of like this is the way things have been done in the past, and it hasn't necessarily been amenable to the artist. And so you are seeing more of that, I think, in place, or at least more visibly, where people are pushing against some of those stringent places where there might have been some of those challenges of control. And Taylor Swift, you know, trying to get her master's, as we would call it, is a very good example of that, where it makes perfect sense, just the way that things were. That when she was a young performer, that she did not have the control over her music and catalog that she wants to have now. It makes perfect sense that that's how that happened, even though that's not good that that happened, but that's just how things were done. And so now to see that being pushed against and torn apart, and you know setting a new standard, absolutely, like you did. I see a lot of that, and I am happy to be in the mix wherever, wherever, wherever that is needed.

Kirsten Mayfield: Hire you, hire you in. You're happy to join that.

Odell Mitchell III: Look, if T S whiz, I'm just saying, I'm not, I'm not gonna turn it down.

Kirsten Mayfield: So I can't help but think that there's a there's a parallel there between the legal industry. There's like these set standards, and people are like, no, this is what we're playing. And the clientele, in that case, the legal industry, the clientele in there would be you know the artist, but in the legal industry, it would be the client, the person that you would be representing, for instance. Not that you're anything like these, you know, the traditional modeled firms. But there's that that gap between what client demand is and what clients want from their lawyers, and what the law firms are saying. No, we've never done it like that. We've done it like this forever, and you need to fit our mold.

Odell Mitchell III: Yes, there. I think there is definitely that tension between the two that you're seeing a lot of that, especially now, and maybe even more now. You know that we are one way or another really pushed into this kind of virtual space. But yeah, you are definitely seeing a move in a lot of ways where people, clients especially, are looking for something different. And I think that in a lot of ways, depending on the the nature of the practice and depending on the law firm, one of the emphasis that like a strong emphasis that clients are having is that they want service people. They don't just want experts. They want you to be an expert and they want you to be really good in your practice, but they also want good service and service professionals as well, and want it to be clear that both of those are there. They don't want the fool's choice between the two, and so that has that's not necessarily how the legal field has set itself up to you know especially firms that culture that practice and the way that things are presented is not with that always being the forefront of what is focused upon, because there's such an emphasis placed upon being good in practice, which was completely understandable. But also, these days people want to like who they're working with. They want to feel like they have access to you. They want to feel like they can connect with you, and those things. In a lot of ways, are imperative, whereas they might have been nice to have not even that long ago.

Kirsten Mayfield: So, how are you implementing those needs? How are you implementing it in your firm to address those for your clients or potential clients?

Odell Mitchell III: Absolutely. So, for me, I would certainly say that there is a little bit of ease of that built in built into the nature of the industry that I'm a part of, so the the level of connection and familiarity, and in some ways somewhat casual experience in the entertainment industry at large is certainly different than some other industries. So I mean, if I was putting it really bluntly, it's like it's not stuffy. So it does help that it has has a has kind of a fun or warmth to it. But beyond that, to me, one of the things that I think is really important is to be explicit about that. I do tell people a version of what I just said: is when I'm taking on new clients, or even as I continue to deepen the relationship with a client, I remind them and tell them like, I am here not just to take care of your legal work, not just to answer your legal questions, not just to protect your work. I am also here to serve you. I am here to help you, and I and I want to accelerate what is important to you. And so I think many of us, many many of us as attorneys, want to do that. But my my background is you know beyond the legal realm, so I've always brought that service professional aspect to it. And so one thing is, I definitely am try to I always try to be explicit with clients about like what what that role is and how what it's going to be like to interact with me. I think I also try to make the lines of communication clear. How can you reach me? What does it look like? If you can't reach me, et cetera, what is what does my rhythm tend to be so that people don't feel like they're sending an email or leaving a voicemail and it's just like off in the void? And I get to that when I get to that. Time management is very important to me, especially as a small firm, and then also communicating that as well. So the more that people have an understanding of what it's going to be like to interact with you, then the more that they are able to manage those expectations and then lean into them. So, one thing that I definitely do is I'm always very clear with people about this is what it looks like to interact. You know, this is the best way to reach me. If you don't hear from me, this is why. You know, or I will always follow up on this. Just really, really being open about those things and then being consistent with them. And I've found that that is not consistently done, even among some of the best attorneys out there, just because that is a service focus that sometimes is missed.

Ron Bockstahler: So Odell, what major record labels have you worked with? Number one. The second question is, what's the difference between an agent and a lawyer in this world?

Odell Mitchell III: Yeah. So, so one of the labels that I've spent a good time interacting with is Sony Columbia, like one of the biggest labels in the world right now, and those folks are really, really great. They have, you know, just people that are just outrageous. Like you can. I mean, it's not like I'm sitting in the same room as like Bob Dylan or something like that. But nevertheless, like they have all this roster of people that we would just really know. And one of the reasons that that major label interaction and experience is important to me is that because it used to be the only way in which that you know artists and musicians were really interacting with or exploiting their music, so they're still prominent. Even though the way the music industry has moved is significantly different to where it's not just landing in the laps of major labels, still the waves of how things have been set up and those gatekeeping pieces are still prominent there. So having those interactions, those relationships, and those connections is really important, and then also not as common as it used to be, especially for someone in Chicago. You know, you might run into a lot of that in Nashville or New York or LA, but here in Chicago, those of us that have those connections hold tight to them and take care of them because we are often skipped over. So that is one way in which we, you know, that's the the that connection to like Sony and Columbia has been really really great. It's been good for my clients who have interacted with them. And then your other question about, you know, what's the difference between a lawyer and an agent? I'd say for for sure the lines blur, you know, depending on what the connection or level of relationship is between the client and that kind of service professional. But I'd certainly say there's things that a lawyer can do that an agent can't do. So the things that I can certainly do as an attorney, looking at agreements and understanding the law, and just having that level of connection to it, like I'm generally always going to be able to go deeper than that than an agent, because also the way that we've been trained to understand those things are just it's just very specific to practice. And are the resources available to me, especially when it comes to levels of federal protection and interacting. With like copyrights or trademarks or things of the sort is pretty high. I'd say an agent in a lot of ways sometimes might be a little bit more broadly focused, and so not only will they maybe help look at someone's agreements, you know, or they might help steer someone's decisions around protections, but they also generally might try to connect this artist with someone, and lawyers do that too. But agents really are trying to bridge a gap for you. They say, "I've got an artist, or I've got a creative entity of some sort, and I can create this connection with someone. I'm trying to use my connections to get them into this room, to get them into this space, and so on and so forth. So they're really leveraging that. I guess I would say if you have an agent and they don't have connections, you don't have a very good agent. If you have a lawyer and they don't have a ton of connections, you might still have a pretty good lawyer.

Ron Bockstahler: So it's interesting. So the majority of our listeners are attorneys, the law firm. So you have a very unique specialty area of law that you practice. So are you getting a lot of your clients from referrals from other attorneys? I think number one, because I'm sitting here thinking, "Gosh, I got, I'm a lawyer. I got this client that I just didn't estate for, but he's a musician, so you're a natural connection to help the help my client.

Odell Mitchell III: I do. So yes, a good chunk of them, I'd say, you know, like a lot of us, but especially in this space, and I've always kind of known it would be this way, is that a high percentage of my clients come through referrals, and so it is very much that setting. I, you know, my lawyer network of fellow attorneys, they'll do some sort of work and then go, yep, I don't do that thing though. I don't do that music thing. I don't do that entertainment thing. So let me send it to a hotel. So absolutely, those come, and I welcome it because it's you know I just I absolutely really appreciate that. And then similarly, especially in creative spaces, clients refer other clients. Like the they just this guy gets it. Talk to him. Like the most, a good chunk of my clients come from other clients who are doing something similar because of the level of trust that they experience and how they feel. This is a really different space, but he gets it. But yeah, if you're a lot of what a lot of what I get comes from other attorneys who aren't in this space, but the lines have bled over a little bit with their clients.

Ron Bockstahler: Cool. Let's let's take a little a little turn here and talk a little personal about you. You know, a lot of times we're talking about women in law and how difficult it can be, but you're a single father. Paint the picture for us of what it's like to have a successful law firm in entertainment, which, at least in my mind, I'm thinking evenings.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, all hours and being a single

Ron Bockstahler: father, you know, tell us what it's like.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yep.

Odell Mitchell III: Yeah, thank you. I I appreciate that. I would say busy, definitely, definitely busy. That's what it's like. So I have two small children. One is five. One is two. Going to be three soon. So for one, just like the nexus of what it is to be at home is certainly not passive at all. Like it's really energetic and busy, and they're just they're everything to me. So I'm very present. And then I think for me, it really does take. That's why I say time management is really important to me because it also means that I am able to be mindful about what it means to give my best to the situations I need to, and be able to focus on that. And what really makes that powerful is understanding my values and understanding the like what it is that I want to do, and the ability to say no, etc. So right now, one of the things that really helps make a successful law firm while also being a single parent, and then also being in a pandemic, is the fact that we can do so many things digitally. Like that's actually been really, really great for me. A good chunk of my clients, I mean, they might be traveling all around at any time. Like I have particularly one client. It feels like every time I talk to them, he's like, "Yeah, I'm here. Yeah, I'm here. Yeah, you know, in another state, in another country. So that's never been foreign to me. The idea that practice means that my clients are right in front of me, even before we again were kind of in this virtual space. It was very often that you know I see my see the clients face to face pretty rarely because they might be out on tour, they might be you know doing something different. I mean, hopefully, if they're you know doing what they're what's important to them, so being comfortable with that is a is a big part of it. Being comfortable with you know being able to interact with people when we're not directly with one another, and then I think it's also things that help me are being able to again know where those boundaries, know where those limits are, and being able to communicate them. So I'm certainly not shy about you know being a single parent. I don't think you can be if you're going to do either of those well. But I also just I've learned over the years how to be very efficient with my time, and then also be very mindful of when things happen. You know when I'm going to be able to focus on the girls or when I'm going to be able to focus. On my work and create spaces that do it. So I keep a lot of solutions in place that help. And then, of course, I I am fortunate that I am able at this point to enlist the right level of support. I don't have a lot of people around me. I do most of it by myself, but I have a few trusted avenues. You know, whether it's a caretaker or things like that, where I'm able to leverage that in the right way to make sure that I'm focusing on my practice in the way that's really important to me. So I see. I appreciate you asking because I think it's really hard for single parents, and it gets missed a lot there. Again, especially women in the workforce, and I know that there are a lot of privileges afforded to me, just even as a single parent father, that really makes some of this even easier for a lot for than for a lot of people, but that invisibility for folks is is pretty stark, especially when you're running your own business. So,

Ron Bockstahler: well, you mentioned your clients out on tour. Is this a all glamor, or you got clients that no one knows of yet?

Odell Mitchell III: I do have clients that no one really knows of for sure, and especially because a lot of the people that I interact with, they might be early, kind of or right at that breaking point in their career, and so then it becomes helpful for them to get to connect with someone like me who sees them, believes in them, but then is kind of connected for a little bit longer, or especially longer. So yeah, I do have some clients that no one really knows of yet, or you know they're working on things that seem like they're going to boost stuff. One of the things that is hard right now is in 2020. I mean, just not everything I do is music, but music has been hit just so hard. I mean, people are just really trying to figure out what are they going to do, how do we keep a lot of this kind of going alive when you can't go out there and do live shows when you can't, you know, easily do appearances? So things have been particularly subdued as far as my clients' ability to kind of like be out there. There's still plenty happening. People are still gearing up towards 2021 for sure.

Ron Bockstahler: Good point here. So I had down to ask you about the the lack of live music in our lives. Is that how is that affecting you personally? But you know, let's tie that into a lot of artists now are doing things online. You know, is that opening up a new area of law that needs to be addressed? And are you working in that?

Odell Mitchell III: I think it. So yes, I think it's awesome that like people are doing some things online. It was really, to me, really amazing to see that kind of emerge just in such real time. I mean, it's like nerdy stuff, like nerdy entertainment lawyer stuff. But I just remember even a few months ago, you know, I'd get these alerts from bands that I follow or platforms or whatever that say it's like so and so is going to be live streaming a show, and it was just really crazy to me to like think about what the experience going to be like, and now I just see it all the time. Like now it happens all the time, where you'd see people get on their social media channels, artists, and say like they are talking about how hard it is. They're like, look, I'm just going to do this because I really need to connect with people. And so at first it was very piecemeal, you know, just you might just have, you know. I think about you know one band that I follow on Instagram. They would just post a picture and say we're going to hop on Facebook Live, you know, tomorrow night at 10, all the way to just like last week, like Billie Eilish, you know, one of our biggest stars of the moment right now, puts together a live stream, but like has rehearsals. It's a full, it's a full production, but for it to be digital. And then I've seen, you know, other bands they rent out an actual performance space, and then they, you know, have a full camera crew. Like they make it an actual experience. So in that, yeah, it is bringing up some areas of law that are new that likely didn't need to be addressed and are as yet unknown, you know how those are going to be addressed. But I think it's also interesting because it's really leaning on some of the places that are already there when it comes to streaming, when it comes to synchronization, as we would call it, where you know music is connected to video, and then broadcast is something that's a whole area of law that we have robust information around, and I work in heavily, and we're seeing a lot of, you know, those come to the fore where there's a lot of streaming. And so, in that sense, on one hand, yeah, it's it's like a new way of doing things, and then on the other hand, it's kind of like, oh man, we have the infrastructure to support this already, and that's why it's really taking off, so I'm I'm fascinated to see how people have adapted to this challenge.

Kirsten Mayfield: I think another level of this whole streaming thing is with concerts and in big venues, especially you have those robots that go through and they swipe up all the tickets and then sell them at massive price increases, and so you've got artists that are actually like maddened by this because it's like isolating their their base. Like the artist is talking to the people, and like the people aren't the rich, you know, people that can afford the extremely expensive tickets. So this is almost. A way for artists to gain their control back over being able to reach the people that they want to reach and to be accessible to everybody instead of just people with money. So, do you think that this is going to stick around and continue developing, or do you think it really is going to be kind of like it's going to dwindle out away and people are going to go back to the big venues, and we're going to go back into that headache again.

Odell Mitchell III: I am over here pumping my fist in agreement and going with man. I sure hope it. I sure hope it does, right? And so I guess I would say there's a gentleman you had on one of your podcasts earlier. I think Richard Brock, who said, and I might have said that wrong, but who said who's talking about kind of this experience overall? The idea that how have thing how things have shifted in the pandemic, will they remain as they are? And I think a turn of phrase that he said that was great. He's like, I think it will leave an imprint, and I think that is that is very true with this as well. I know so many people itching to get back out there and like play live shows, and then that they will. And so, therefore, kind of in some ways, even if it's you know another year or even another two, the machine of what that looks like will probably pick right back up as it did, which will include this very thing that you're talking about. These like electronic scalpers, you grab all the tickets, and then like any big show you go to, like the first you know 100 seats in the row are just like exorbitant because that's the ticket price has been driven up. So I don't think that's necessarily going to go away just because the infrastructure for live shows, especially live large live ones, will remain. However, I don't think that once we're able to just like be back in clubs together that we won't see digital live streams as we are. I think we will still see a lot of that, especially for the very reasons that you're saying, like that it gives artists a lot of direct control back, and it also gives another creative medium. So I might decide it's similar to kind of the open mic, you know, or comedian working out jokes. You know, if I'm a big name comedian, I love to get out there and do my stadiums, do my arenas, et cetera. But when I'm working on my material, I might go to the local comedy club and work out some of my jokes, you know. And then there's a different feeling, a different thing that I want from that. And similarly, I think there even are large folks who, you know, are going to get back out there and do their whole, you know, I'll be whatever the next Taylor Swift tour is going to be. I'll be there, like the whole machine of it. But still, I will still love it if she decides to sit in her living room and give us a live stream at some point, even if we're selling tickets to it, like, and so I think it has created another creative outlet that people will not be done exploring, even when the mandate to do so has lifted from a public health sense.

Ron Bockstahler: Wow, some interesting stuff. I think there's a lot of change going to happen in that industry, but it's going to be exciting to see what happens. You know, I got to ask you: Do you have a favorite artist out there, or a favorite genre that you listen to?

Odell Mitchell III: Man, so these days, like everyone says, I listen to everything, and that is true. I do definitely listen to a little bit of everything. So I guess the way that I usually answer that is, I go, "What like three or four things are in top rotation for me right now, especially since the way that I interact with stuff. So I have an extensive vinyl collection, and I've been kind of going back through that. And so some of what I've been digging into is a lot of Old Temptations, a lot of Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy and the Jimi Hendrix experience. So like I can never get enough of those. I really enjoy that experience just from a vinyl standpoint, especially since they're like these deep cuts I've never heard. So there's kind of that experience there where I'm just like in a in a Jimmy phase lately, and then from a I listen to a lot of rock music. There's this band, Bring Me The Horizon, who is really great. Just recently, just put out a new project. They're huge, you know. They're from the UK, and it's just outstanding. They never disappoint. And then I actually have to shout out, man, one of my clients. He's this rapper named Shepard, and man, he just like the way that he creates things. He's creating a lot of music for right now, and I think it's just absolutely incredible. And so, especially for those of us who are connected to anything that is athletic or anything of that sort, like his music will get you going in the gym. It'll get you out of the out of bed in the morning. Sometimes it does for me. You know, it's still dark, and I don't want to do that run or some that bike ride. Sometimes I throw on one of his songs, or survive, and just like that'll do the trick for me. So Shepard is someone that is always in top rotation and just like happens to be a client. I was a fan before he was even a client, and so that those are those are three people that lately have been in pretty top rotation for me.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, that's great. I. I train all the time. I'm going to get Shepard on my playlist, and you should check

Odell Mitchell III: out Game Time. It's a big one. It's a big one.

Kirsten Mayfield: I have to say, like you were not kidding. I know. Bring me the Horizon. That's like electronic core, death core. At least it was like back when I was listening to them, and then so you got the Temptations on that. Now I have to ask, what's your daughter's favorite stuff to listen to? Since you've got an extensive collection,

Odell Mitchell III: so the youngest one who is two will gladly interrupt anything and say, "Alexa, play Baby Shark. I'm still in that. Still in. I'm still dealing with that. Oh man, turn it into a day. But the oldest one, we do. We definitely do a lot of Disney because we, you know, I I can sing all the words to any Frozen. But she also loves whenever I say. And what I, as you can hear, what I often do is just like with them, I will put on on a streaming radio station. And so the things that she often will ask me, and I'm so proud of this, she'll say, play the fire band. And what she's talking about is she wants me to play Earth, Wind, and Fire radio and everything associated with it. So that's I'm I'm happy about that.

Kirsten Mayfield: That's awesome. They're gonna be little lawyers, or are they gonna be little creatives, or are they gonna follow your footsteps?

Odell Mitchell III: Oh my goodness! I don't. I don't. They'll definitely be creative. The oldest is very, very, very creative, but I also never want to get into an argument with her either because she Unknown: is sharp and will cut me down. So I see tendrils of both, and so we'll see. We'll definitely see.

Ron Bockstahler: Yep. As we're finishing up, I want to bring this down to earth and maybe get a little real with you.

Odell Mitchell III: Yeah.

Ron Bockstahler: You're a man of color in an industry that's predominantly white. Can you talk a little bit about how you've handled the challenges you've been up against, and provide some words of wisdom for others that aspire to follow in your footsteps?

Odell Mitchell III: Absolutely, this is such a great question, and I appreciate that. So, yeah, for me, there. I mean, it's it's it's certainly not been without its challenges, for sure. One thing that does help is the industry that I'm in. Again, the creative industry has a different way of letting me navigate through things sometimes, and so I do definitely appreciate that. I mean, for you know, here I am talking about a client that's a rapper. So by by nature, some of the people I'm going to be interacting with from a professional standpoint, helps. But being in law school, was the only black guy in my class. You know that was just notable to me, especially just that level of disparate connection to what it's going to be like to be in the workforce. And so, what I have certainly found that is helpful and makes a world of difference is a the connections you can make, whether it's mentors or people that can help guide that, so that you're not feeling like an island, and those things are just not automatically there. But there are great organizations, and even in Chicago, let alone all all around, that really help with that. So whether it's like the CCBA, the Cook County Bar Association, you know, one of the oldest Black guided attorney bar associations. You know, that's a great, great place. You know, or being able to just whenever you connect with an attorney, being able to speak about that and say, I want to be able to, you know, stay connected with you. That's something that I've done. That I did early on. I would tell people, I was like, "Hey, I'm traveling this, and there's not a lot of people that look like us. Is it okay if we stay connected? And that's definitely, definitely helped. But I think also being able to be part of organizations and groups that help speak truth to power wherever you are are going to make a difference. And so, if you're in a firm and you are able to be part of an organization or a group that helps bring light to issues and creates real spaces of diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging in there, they need those voices. Or if you're out, you know, on your own, but you are connected to those spaces, it will both give senses of belonging, validation, and connection and community, but it'll also bring about those experiences and turn them into something that can be powerful. And so, I have watched some of my colleagues. We all know Kendra Spearman is a great example, or like Henderson Banks, two people I love to shout out because I've seen some of the things that they've done in this space to bring about equity to lawyers that look like us, black lawyers and women lawyers, but then also to people of color at large in the legal space. And I think that those efforts are really something to applaud and support. And so, being connected to people like that really matters because I think that life is not going to automatically cut a swath through. You have to be able to find that way forward, and then also surround yourself with people you trust, so that when you see the moments, those times where you can make a difference and speak to power, that you're not doing it alone.

Ron Bockstahler: Powerful words, Odell. Really appreciate you sharing it with us. We try to finish our show with. One one final question, and that question is: What is the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed?

Odell Mitchell III: One of the the real thing that I'd really like to see changed is just quite frankly the posture that a lot of us attorneys have toward our clients. I really want to see us feel and experience a level of equality towards people that a lot of times there. I mean, it's just it's from the profession, it's from school, like. But we are oftentimes the smartest people in the room, and oftentimes we are. That's why people are in the room with us. But the way that we carry that and the way that we project that forward, um, really, it still has this wave, this still kind of negative connotation that people have interacting with a lawyer. I feel, I find that I'm still constantly undoing some bad will of the experiences that people have had, and I think that if we take the skills and the strength and all of the things that we have as attorneys, but also channel them into our humanity. Then, man, oh man, can we do some really, really great things? And a lot of people are. Never want to say that people aren't. A lot of people really aren't. But I think that focus is one that people come to eventually if they're going to. I think it should be explicit from the minute we start learning how to practice law.

Ron Bockstahler: Well said, well said, Odell. Thank you. We've been speaking with Odell Mitchell, the third attorney, owner of Third Inline Legal, musician and single father. Odell, anything you want to add before we sign off?

Odell Mitchell III: I would say again, I would say thank you again for having me. Again, it's I really an honor, and I love the podcast. I love the things that are being done. It's been wonderful, wonderful to speak with you both. Please, by all means, if anyone needs to connect with me in any way, please reach out. Great ways are you can always connect with me on LinkedIn. Just Odell Mitchell the Third is where you'll find that, and then also a good way to connect with me is also on Instagram. It is at Odell, comma E S Q. So all spelled out Odell, comma E S Q. It's pretty much any social handle that you'll find me under. And then really the best way is email, just straight up email Odell at thirdinlinelegal.com. That is the thing that I look at and answer the most heavily. So LinkedIn, Instagram, or email are some of the best ways to connect with me. And I'm always happy to talk to anybody, help, or steer them in the best direction as best I

Kirsten Mayfield: can. And Kanye and Taylor Swift, you guys have that contact information now, so reach out.

Odell Mitchell III: That's right. I'm waiting. I'm waiting by the phone.

Ron Bockstahler: I got to end with my my wife's a huge Lenny Kravitz fan.

Kirsten Mayfield: Oh, nice. And since this

Ron Bockstahler: pandemic, you know, she's it must have been on his website or something. But Lenny now texts her all the time.

Odell Mitchell III: What?

Ron Bockstahler: And you know, we'll be having this nice conversation. So excuse me, Lenny's texting me. So things are definitely changing. So it's the music industry, the entertainment industry is right on the cusp of a lot of change. So if you're looking for an attorney to give you some guidance or your client some guidance, please reach out to Odell. Odell, thanks for joining us today.

Odell Mitchell III: Thank you so much.

Ron Bockstahler: You've been listening to the 1958 Lawyer. Appreciate you tuning in, and we'll talk to you next week.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.