Reynolds & McElwee: Two Attorneys Build a Law Firm Fit for the Future of Law

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the show. You're listening to the 1958 Lawyer. I am your co-host Ron Bockstahler,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I'm Kirsten Mayfield. And we have with us today our second dual interview because the first one went so well. And joining us today are two founding members of RM Law Group, Jared Reynolds, Matt McElwee. I should have asked you how to pronounce that name. Was that close, McElwee? McElwee.

Matthew McElwee: That's it's McElwee. McElwee. I did a little

Kirsten Mayfield: research because you guys met each other. Well, you founded your friendship in in Scotland, and so I was like, "Oh, is that a Scottish last name? And it is not. It is Irish. And and the word that they used that they said it derived from had like 15 consonants in it, so that didn't help with pronunciation at all when I researched it. Anyway, back to Jared and Matt. That's

Jared Reynolds: a deep dive.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah, I it was.

Matthew McElwee: That's right.

Kirsten Mayfield: Jared and Matt, they as I just hinted at, they became friends in Scotland. But where they met was at Chicago Kent Moot Court Honor Society, and then they studied abroad. And they really have taken different tangential career paths. Matt's gone the corporate big law route. Jared's been more the PI defense work, working with individuals, and they recently decided they both wanted to go solo, and saw an opportunity for an old law school dream to come to life, and for them to actually open a firm together. And it's been going really great so far. You guys are only a few months in, you're already hiring new people. Congratulations on that, and thank you for joining us today.

Jared Reynolds: Thank you for having us. Absolutely, thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Matt, let's start with you. You you came out of a couple big firms. You were at Kirkland, you were at Gerber and Eisenberg, and you you just started a family, and then you opened a new firm. Kind of what made you decide this was the right move, the right time, and then how's it going?

Matthew McElwee: Yeah, so for for me, the move was was pretty client focused. My entire client base is startups, entrepreneurs, and a and a handful of venture capital funds. So flexibility of service offering and flexibility of pricing is huge. And larger firms, while they have a very deep bench of talent and a lot of brilliant minds, there's not a lot of flexibility when it comes to client-to-client management. So by jumping to an independent firm, that gives me the ability to tailor each pricing package and each engagement to fit that client, and that was the the biggest motivator for me.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, and you guys set up a unique firm because you actually have different areas of expertise and practice, so you're kind of melding that together, which you don't see too often in a newer law firm getting going. So tell us about the thought process behind that, and then how it's working out.

Jared Reynolds: Sure. So, I mean, ultimately, as sort of Kirsten mentioned, I think it started with us being friends and wanted to work together, and ultimately tried to figure out ways to make that happen. But the more and more we talked it through, the more and more we realized that although it was a bit of an atypical dynamic of a firm and a startup firm, it made a lot of sense, both from a business standpoint as well as just practice area standpoint. From business standpoint, all my cases, I'm doing plaintiff's personal injury, a lot of nursing home abuse cases, any type of wrongful death case, and they're all contingent. So there's a huge possibility of great outcomes and great payoffs on attorneys' fees, but it may happen this year. May happen five years from now. It's it's certainly quite difficult to build a practice and build a practice right off the bat without significant savings and significant cash influx. And Matt's side of the practice is much more predictable and much more you can build a foundation off of and really project out based on the number of clients he has, based on his billable rate, how much work he foresees, and and Matt's one of the best I've ever experienced at projecting and budgeting out and knowing exactly how many hours the most complex exchange and startup and financing he can tell us almost exactly how much hours and how much income is going to come from a particular client over the course of. The next six months, year, five years, he sort of always has some sort of projection out where that doesn't exist quite as concrete on the contingent side. So from the cash flow side, Matt's practice is able to provide a lot of cash flow that just isn't existent in the contingent side, and allows me to not have to turn down cases that I think a lot of start solo personal injury attorneys have to turn down due to a financing worry of paying for experts, paying for all the various things that it takes to prosecute a case. I I know that if I do the intake right, I'll get those costs back eventually, but it's a bit of a gamble to hold a whole practice under. And then we've seen a lot of collaboration of being able to help each other's clients. I sue a lot of big corporations. Matt knows the ins and outs of big corporations, so he's kind of able to help me pierce the corporate veil a lot, and then it's always nice to be able to help his clients avoid people like me and avoid litigation and try to work out ways to protect themselves, especially in these starting stages of their companies. So we've found a lot more collaboration than I think even us we ever envisioned.

Ron Bockstahler: What's the runway meaning? Like, how much time do you give yourself before you got to start bringing in some of these contingencies? I mean, Matt, I know you've had calculated this out to like the dime or the day, I should say.

Matthew McElwee: Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely right. In terms of startup runway, you know, we took our time with the launch, so we didn't actually have to worry about that. We we came over with enough portable clients that we were stable day one, which I know is a fortunate thing for people starting firms. In terms of the the projected contingency runway, that's it's a pretty far window. You know, some of Jared's cases, you know, to brag on him a bit, you know, he's excellent at mixing the balance of shorter-term contingent cases and longer-term. So for us, it's it's sort of easier to project when a smaller case will potentially settle or or reach a conclusion versus longer-term cases that might go on for years. So we have worked out a structure basically where we amortize that potential attorney's fee over the course of the the expected life of that case, which is helpful because over time that data will get more and more specific and reliable, and allow us to be sort of on the forward thinking end of that budget side of things for for a law firm.

Ron Bockstahler: So jump in, Matt. You just said something that's got me. This is why I really like your law firm and your model. Is you know two of the top things are going to change law firms over the next five years, and quite honestly, the next 18 months is going to be analytics and artificial intelligence. And what you're talking about is analytics. You should be able to measure out and run a law firm like a business to say, look, here's what we can project out. And and honestly, you should be able to come up with some kind of a good, reasonable measurement or stat that says, okay, this type of case they settle within a 12 month period, and here's what we can expect for this revenue if we're bringing in. So all of a sudden now it just becomes a more of a fill the funnel type program, right? Which, as Jared mentioned, and doing the right type of intake pretty much guarantees that you're going to be able to keep that going

Jared Reynolds: for sure. And I find that I always described it as having a lot of irons in the fire. I knew that early on that you're not going to necessarily see the immediate benefits in the contingent realm and on in the networking side of things of putting yourself out there and building a name for yourself and making those useful connections, but almost like clockwork, they they started to turnover, and it got to the point where I'd done some defense work for a while too. But admittedly, I was still networking for plaintiffs' cases because why not? I think every attorney should network for plaintiffs' cases, right? Or Pelantis personal injury cases, frankly, and that that is a bit of a plug because I mean, at the end of the day, I think there's a lot of opportunities out there that people don't see if they're not being proactive and if they're not just listening to not only their peers but also their family. I mean, your family and your peers are the hugest networks you can have, and I know in some of the big firms I've worked for, and same with Matt. I know there's always times where people like email the entire firm and say, "Hey, does anybody know anybody that does family law? Does anybody know anybody that has this? It's just a regular occurrence in the firm setting, and if you're the person that just sort of ignores that and doesn't act on that as an opportunity to make a new connection, I don't think you're being proactive enough as an attorney. And and at the end of the day, I mean, plaintiffs' personal injury cases easily can be a supplemental form of income for any other attorney. As we all know, so it's it's sort of a win win to be more proactive with your entire network. I think your network it really is the most valuable thing any of us can have.

Ron Bockstahler: Very true, Matt. Let's go back to you and talk about startups. I mean, you left the Kirkland Ellis of the world to actually go, you know, focus on your passion, which was working with the smaller startups, the innovative companies, tell us how how you're doing that, and how are you getting your new clients?

Matthew McElwee: Sure, sure, yeah. So for me, the the passion for startups actually predates not only Kirkland but but law school. I had a entrepreneurship undergrad, started a couple of failures myself that led me sort of into the legal field. Jumped into Kirkland to you know get a get a sense of private equity and how that industry works, but ultimately ended right back up with startups. The the enthusiasm, the the passion in entrepreneurs always attracted me to that level of work because they live and breathe what they do on a daily basis, which is fantastic. And surrounding your entire client base with that energy makes it very easy to be productive yourself. So for me, it was about getting back to that that energy on the on the founder side. And if I can help founders in a small way bring those products forward, bring those services forward. It's it's a win, you know. No matter how big the client

Kirsten Mayfield: is. So we talked about Jared. You you said the network is the most powerful part that an attorney can have, but Matt, you're more of the the like grinder and minder to steal terms. I just recently learned, whereas Jared's the finder. So do you agree that the network is the best for you, or or is there some other aspect of being an attorney that is the most important?

Matthew McElwee: You know, it's I still agree that it's the most important thing. You know, the the network is for attorneys what allows us to you know not only build a book of business, which is obviously important, but be useful to our clients that we already have. You know, it's it's a pretty much a daily thing at this point that a client will reach out and need some nuanced, you know, issue answered. Maybe it's not in my wheelhouse. You know, maybe I know a little bit about it, but having someone that I can always reach out to, to advise on that issue, to step in and and have sort of consultation with that client, it's it's a huge value add for them. You know, a close second for me is you know the the soft skills involved in lawyering. For most of my clients, you know, they don't actually need complex legal research on a daily basis. What they need is somebody to hear out the actual issue in front of them, understand it for what it is, and then give them practical advice on how to address it. You know, of course, we have to be cognizant of the laws involved. We need to be aware of you know contract issues that crop up. You know, the more the more nuanced issues, but giving them actual advice on how to solve the problem. That's for me the the skill I use. You know, not just daily but hourly, for for when it comes up.

Jared Reynolds: I mean, too. I think Matt sort of hit the nail on the head. Is people come to us all the time asking for things that we don't necessarily do, and it's easy enough to just sort of wave that off and say, "Oh, we don't do that, and end it there. But that eliminates an entire opportunity. I mean, I think both of us pride ourselves in trying to be sort of the go-to people for our networks for anything, and I think that that's the best thing we can be as attorneys. Is somebody comes to me looking for a divorce attorney, and I am able to ask them, okay, what's your sort of budget, and and figure out okay, is should we send them to somebody who's been on a flat fee arrangement, or somebody who's going to bill? And even though we don't do that now, we look like a rock star to the person that we're helping, and we look like a rock star to the person that we're referring them to. So it's almost a two for one special where now both of them hopefully think of us next time for what we actually do, and come to us again for whatever needs they have. And on that side, I always I always thought of personal injury as sort of the prime example of referral networking and referral business. But seeing Matt's side and learning more about that startup realm, which is, like you said, is just a whole nother realm and a whole nother type of person. It's been great to see because I think, admittedly, even though we were best friends when he worked at Kirkland, I had no idea what he did. I thought he was just this faceless attorney making corporations big money and had little to no soul left, but admittedly, then I admittedly learned about how much great work he did for entrepreneurs, and like I said, the passion behind starting your own businesses, and that sort of put faces to these corporations and these startups that I hadn't seen before. And if you think that the startup realm doesn't also. So include just massive amounts of networking and referral arrangements. I mean, startup entrepreneurs start and sell businesses like real estate. I feel like I've learned. Then, if they're using Matt on their first business, who do you think they're going to use the next time when he did such a great job on their first business? They're going to use him for every other business moving forward, and they're going to refer him to their like-minded entrepreneurial friends to do the same. So, seeing that side of his business has really been kind of incredible on my end. Seeing that just niche of an area and how it's exactly the same kind of referral networking and passing business, and I don't think there's. I've always said the best type of referral I think you can get is from a former client. I think that's a huge compliment, and even from an adversary council. I think those are my two favorite referrals because even the counsels that I've like been screaming at each other tooth and nail in court, like just at each other's throats in depositions, then we'll go get drinks afterwards, and then they'll send me a case. And I'm like, oh, so we don't we don't hate each other. Great. So you're good

Kirsten Mayfield: lawyers, what you're proving. And they're like, yeah, he's

Jared Reynolds: him. Hoping, yeah, that's good. So are there

Kirsten Mayfield: places that you guys are seeing to kind of expand and maybe bring in another attorney that that you could like fill a hole and like keep more of that profit in house.

Matthew McElwee: Yeah, absolutely. It's a it's an area we've actually looked at quite a bit over the last couple of months. Where you know it's again, you know, you talk about data data driven direction. For us, it's it's a data point we keep track of. You know, when a current client or a prospective client reaches out for something we don't do. We have people in our network that do that thing that we can send them to. We can do a dual engagement cross refer. But for us, it's something we always keep an eye on that eventually will grow to a size, and we want to set our infrastructure up to accommodate it, so that we could bring more specializations in house to become you know, the the one stop shop for clients. You know, where we likely have whatever the issue is in house, and if not, we have three other people that can help you with it. You know, the next day, that's that's an ultimate goal for us over the next few years.

Jared Reynolds: I think that's one of the most exciting parts of being on our own. Is I think Matt and I both have lots of ideas, and we are very supportive of each other's ideas. But ideas mean one thing, but if it makes, we need to make sure, of course, makes business sense, and that the numbers make sense. And Matt's a huge numbers guy, and he's able to tell both of us whether our numbers or our ideas make sense with the numbers, but the ideas are able to at least be supported. Where I don't think I think both of us didn't feel that way in different firm dynamics. And nowadays, if if the opportunity makes sense, we're open to it. I I'm in the process of getting licensed in Utah and New York, both because I'm from New York originally, and just the opportunities are making sense because of networking opportunities in each state. Where I don't think if I was in a firm previous, if I came to one of my bosses, I think I'm going to get licensed in Utah. I don't think I'd be, I don't think I'd be very receptive. Yeah, New York. Yeah, okay,

Kirsten Mayfield: but you're like Utah. New York, possibly.

Jared Reynolds: Yeah, I do love skiing, so that might have something to do. Alternative motives, yes. There is business. The numbers do make sense.

Ron Bockstahler: So things are changing very quickly in the legal industry, which is kind of funny to be saying things change quickly, right? That never makes sense in the legal industry. But actually, I really believe they are at this point in time. How are you guys delivering effective remote legal advice? So you're not seeing your clients every day, at least in person. So how have you adjusted to be able to, you know, effective deliver good legal advice remotely?

Matthew McElwee: Sure, sure, yeah. So I think first and foremost, it's accessibility. You know, for my clients at least, you know, startups weathered COVID better than most. I think as as businesses because they were already set up to accommodate that kind of remote communication. So for us, and particularly on my practice, it's about matching those channels. You know, so I converse with clients, you know, by email, by text. We use Zoom, Teams, you know, Google Meet, you know, whatever their system is. As long as we can accommodate it on our end and preserve our confidentiality obligations, I'm happy to use it. And that kind of accessibility is really appreciated on the client side to make sure that I'm fitting in with with their business and their their infrastructure.

Ron Bockstahler: What about document collaboration? And I say this in all honesty because I've talked to so many attorneys who've been practicing for a very long time. They have no clue what I'm talking about when I say, "Can't we just work on this document together? And they're like, "You." Yeah, do you have a system to do that? And I'm like, wow, we have got to change lawyers, or they've got to get up to date. So, you know, you guys, what are you guys doing to address this issue, or is even an issue for you guys?

Matthew McElwee: Yeah, it's it's something I deal with pretty regularly. You know, if I'm if I'm working opposite opposing counsel, it's it's the traditional. I'll work on it in Word on my end. We'll run some PDF red lines, exchange that back and forth. Collaborating with clients is is different because most of mine prefer a more instantaneous approach. So a lot of clients prefer that I drop it into you know Google Docs, for example, so they can drop bubble comments in, suggest changes, reply in real time. We'll do a lot of share screen, you know, via Zoom, so that I can walk them through documents live, highlight specific sections. It's very transactional in nature, and I think it always will be with my practice. But it allows clients to actually understand and and see me face to face, walk them through issues, so that the

Jared Reynolds: next 10 times they run into that problem, they have context that's useful. On the personal industry side of things, I think early on I realized the number of times that the first time I actually, even pre-COVID, that I would meet my clients face to face would be preparing them for their deposition, and their deposition may be years after the incident occurred, or even years after-I mean, hopefully not years after the case is filed, but certainly possibly. And I think that made me realize when it comes to sort of the intake and the buildup of these files, getting ready, getting them ready to file, or getting them ready to work up for the deposition, the amount of actual face-to-face time I've needed with clients is very rare. Certainly, incredibly accessible via phone, email. I always tell them whatever works for you works for me. Same with Matt. Text me. I mean, whatever works, I'm happy to accommodate. It's certainly weekends. I mean, post 5o'clock It obviously, if they need me, I'm there. And different clients need different things. Some clients don't want to hear from me until the case is over, and whenever that is, some want to be their want to have their hands held throughout the process. And I'm happy to accommodate either way. But I think you sort of hit the nail on the head, Ron. Is that things are changing so fast, and they needed to. I mean, I think unfortunately the legal field needed a pandemic to get us to this position. I don't know if it would ever. I don't know if the four of us would have been naturally on Zoom doing this, but for a pandemic, which is sort of crazy. It's not any new technology. We all had this technology long before the pandemic, and I think the legal field attorneys are so often behind so many just great changes in society, but they fail to implement those changes in our own field, and I'm. really enjoying the embracement of technology nowadays. Even simple things like Matt and I use a software called HelloSign for all of our contracts for anything that needs to be signed. I remember the days, and I say this like it was long time ago. It was only a couple years ago where I was waiting for the signature page of a contract to be faxed back to me, and or emailed back to me, or a picture of it taken on their phone, and admittedly, my clients aren't always as savvy as some of Matt's clients, and that often would cause some difficulty on the tech side of things. But I've never had an issue with the simplicity of signing a document via Hello Sign, or even the days of printing out all of the medical records for a deposition, or even some emails, or and my previous firm was very tech forward, so I sort of learned and was able to get ready for something like this. But now I feel comfortable doing very complex depositions via Zoom with all of the exhibits virtually, and I mean that's a game changer when it comes to costs and time. The amount of binders I spent creating as a young attorney, like with medical records and exhibits, it's. I was just talking to an attorney today who the most distinct thing they remembered about this trial that we were on together was the fact that I just used an iPad the whole time, opposed to any exhibits. And so the fact that that was memorable years later, I think, is is telling. We as attorneys, it's almost it's so cost effective, and there's just so much technology out there to be taken advantage of that it's crazy that it's not taken advantage of more often.

Kirsten Mayfield: I really liked the comment you made about the e-signature because that one for me is so it's so obvious and in obvious in obvious of. Solution at the same time because nobody has a printer in their house anymore. One printers are the number one technology to be a pain in your butt, so it's the first thing that goes, and the last thing you purchase again. And two, nobody's printing anything anymore. But I've-I mean, everyone has a cell phone, and you can sign documents online. So the fact that like there was this hurdle because the clients didn't have the technology and the ability. I remember some clients would have to like go to the library and print things and like use the library computers and stuff, trying to like send things to attorneys. But the whole time they had a cell phone and could have easily signed a document if that attorney had just gotten a e-signature platform.

Jared Reynolds: Go to the currency exchange to fax it. Yeah, absolutely. I laugh because so as Ron knows, I was home with my parents a week or two ago. My dad was having a knee replacement, and so this sounds very off topic, but I promise that it'll come back around. So we're at his physical therapy like a couple of days after post surgery. He's not the happiest camper in the world, but we're in the middle of New, like middle of nowhere, New York, and we get to the therapy office, and we had forgotten the prescription for physical therapy, which is just a piece of paper that says, "Hey, spoiler, you need physical therapy following a knee replacement surgery. So the like 70-year-old assistant goes, "We can't start physical therapy, and so I have to like call my mom to get her to send me the picture of the script. It's on my phone. They still don't accept it, and I'm like, "Okay, well, I'll email to you. And they go, we we don't have email, and so I literally had to send it from middle of nowhere to York, New York, to Matt in Chicago for him to fax back to middle of nowhere New York for them to just get the prescription. So this like piece of paper went from middle of nowhere New York to to other middle of nowhere in New York to Chicago back to middle of nowhere New York it was a mess and that's very exemplary of a lot of the legal industry unfortunately

Ron Bockstahler: well you just made the legal industry look really good or the medical industry look really bad

Jared Reynolds: they go hand in hand very frequently so

Ron Bockstahler: but that's crazy right it's the same document. If it's digital or if it's hard copy, it's the same thing.

Kirsten Mayfield: And everyone's just making their own lives harder. And it feels like if you would just talk to and know your clientele and and know the people you're working with and just say, "Hey, what could we have done that made this better? A simple survey. Hey, get an email. You know those little things. But it seems like in the legal industry, this is true too. Like thinking of the what the client needs is not, even though everybody's just trying to help their clients, thinking about what would make the client side of it easier does not seem to be the forefront. And I say this because we we put out marketing about like what your client needs, the The disparities between what attorneys are providing and what clients are requesting, and those are frequently the like least clicked, least opened, least read items that we share. So like it's just not interesting to attorneys, even though they're in a profession because they want to take care of their clients. So why do you guys have any insight?

Matthew McElwee: We do. It's it's actually something we we talk about somewhat regularly because in the legal field, you know, even in the firms that Jared and I have worked for, no matter how competent the people are and how impressive the firm, there's a bit of a bit of atrophy in in the legal field where the fact that something has functioned so far means that we should not bother to change it. It's it's working. We've got more important things to do. Just leave it alone. If it was broken, it would break things. When you know, often it's not quite so sudden. You know, it's not like as attorneys we wake up one day and think all my clients left because I don't have hello sign. It it happens much more gradually than that, to the point where, you know, rather than being reactionary and adopting new technology when I don't know a pandemic occurs, you know, it requires a little more proactivity where we're anticipating what clients are going to want, maybe even before they're aware that it's helpful and propose those solutions to them in advance of of it becoming a problem, so you know, with our firm, that was a huge focus when we were setting up our our technology, building out a virtual firm in the middle of a pandemic. We focused every aspect of what we were providing on how can we do this as efficiently as possible, as cost effectively as possible, you know, and as focused on the client as possible, and if something checked all three boxes, then we adopted it, and it's still in our tech stack today.

Jared Reynolds: And I think that's a big part of what we both recognized, and what sort of motivated us to grow out on our own is there's just so much waste in the legal field in the legal industry, and the pandemic really brought that. To light, I did back in the day. If you had asked me like, what was the bane of my existence and what I hated doing the most as a young attorney, it was going to the collar counties for a five-minute CMC. I would drive upwards to three hours a day for some random agreed court order in DuPage, Will, Kane, or even further sometimes, and I would do everything in my power to get out of those CMCs, not because I didn't want to be a team player, but because it was a waste of time. And so, if I knew opposing counsel was going, and not only that, but that they were going to be able to bill for the matter, then it was a no-brainer to have them cover court for me. I then started doing some defense, but I was doing a lot of flat fee stuff, so I wasn't even really getting any benefit from driving three hours because it was the same rate no matter what. Nowadays, of course, we know in the pandemic, I think a lot of the attorneys and the firms that were hit the most were the ones that were reliant on that stream of income-the three hours of billables for five minutes of work, really. And I think a lot of clients and a lot of mostly insurance companies, but a lot of clients in general, are not are going to get very savvy if they haven't already and realize we're not paying for three hours of attorneys' time when they can just log in to Zoom for court, or just call in via court call, or any of those other solutions, or have somebody else cover. And I think that was a big part of just the waste that we see in the legal industry. And that's just one example. I think we've been able to keep our costs so low, which has really helped us in our firm's growth so quickly early on, while still focusing on using technology and using the most efficient means to get from point A to point B.

Ron Bockstahler: Let's take this one step further. Okay, we got technology, and you guys are you're hitting a home run on this because this has been on my mind a lot as technology and why aren't we using more of it? But let's talk about one attribute that each of you have that really says, okay, this is why you know most of our audience is attorneys, right? Why do they recommend you guys for the work to someone they know? So give us a one or two or three attributes that you say, man, this is why I am the best at. Who wants to go first?

Matthew McElwee: I can take that one. Yeah. So, top attributes, you know, for being being the best startup attorney. First and foremost, you know, awareness of what they're dealing with. You know, even before starting this firm, which is in itself a startup in a way. You know, immersing myself in what startups and founders are going through means that when they bring an issue to me, not only have I dealt with it with 10 other clients, but I've actually dealt with it. You know, so so much of my practice is sort of counsel on how to deal with things, how to how to look at things, and having dealt with that myself gives me a first-person perspective. Beyond that, you know, it's it's accessibility, competence, and you know the the ability to deliver what actually needs to be delivered. You know, not a client reaching out and saying, you know, Matt, I've got this issue. What can I do? Well, I I've got a 30-page agreement that I'm happy to draft for you and and send your way. No, it's it's oftentimes you know for startups what they need is is directly the opposite of the way attorneys drive revenue. You know they don't always need 10 billable hours to solve a problem. Sometimes it's a 20 minute conversation to say, well, don't do this because it's not going to add value to your business, you're distracting yourself. Focus on your, you know, your your core set. It's my willingness to sort of forego the the obvious revenue for the client's benefit. That's, you know, I aim to be that trustworthy at all times, and I live up to that with every client.

Jared Reynolds: Excellent, Jared. Sure. So I think it's touching on a number of things that Matt mentioned, but certainly comes down to our experience and our competence, and I think also our personalities. My experience I've always felt very strong with since even before law school. I I wanted to be a public defender, so even before law school, I was clerking with public defenders in New York. Went to law school, worked with the Cook County public defenders the entirety of law school. Got more trial experience than most attorneys as a 711 with the Public Defender's Office, and really felt day one of being a licensed attorney that I had already been serving as an attorney for years at that point, I admittedly didn't have as much civil litigation experience. So then, starting off as an attorney, I was thrown into it, and I was taking depositions. And I think now I've taken most more depositions than most attorneys. So with my trial experience and my civil litigation experience, I. Truly feel comfortable taking a case from day one call all the way through trial. That has given me the confidence to take on a multitude of cases, knowing that the litigation skills are there, even if it's something that is a little bit different than what I've experienced in the past. I just need to learn that niche area of law, or I need to learn that niche area of medicine. I mean, my goal is to always know the medicine better than the doctor that I'm about to cross examine because I'm not going to let them make a fool of me in front of a jury. And it just comes down to preparation. I think Matt and I always are going to over prepare for anything and everything that we do, because we want to foresee every possible scenario and every potential outcome, and then with that also, I'm inherently dealing with people that are at a lot of the lowest moments of their lives. I was dealing with that when I was at the public defender's office, dealing with people accused of horrible crimes that sometimes were even younger than me, as a 21-year-old at that point in law school. Being with people and being personal, sometimes they just want to talk and they just want to feel like they're being listened to. And I feel like I provide a sort of ease of personality to my clients that they feel comfortable in opening up with me because you need your clients to be completely upfront with you and be open up with you. And I find I'm very upfront with my clients. I tell them usually how long this process usually can take, but they appreciate me being upfront with them and they appreciate me being there for them in these just horrific times, whether they've lost a loved one or whether they've gone through a horrific injury themselves, and it's intimidating talking to attorneys. I think we forget how intimidating we can be as a profession, and as we can be as people. All they know is the attorneys they see on TV. All they know are the attorneys they see in commercials, and kind of getting away from that and being somebody that they want to just talk to? I think is a big thing of how I approach my practice area. And knowing that this, the audience for this is mostly attorneys, I think that's how I want my clients. If I'm referring a client to another attorney, that's how I want them to be taken care of. And I take care of my clients because I care about my clients, and I think for attorneys that should be the best case scenario is knowing that you're handing over somebody to somebody that's going to care about that person. And for attorneys, I'm I I love meeting new attorneys, and I love making new referral arrangements. And like I said earlier, I think at the end of the day, I'm always looking to talk and see how I can build that new relationship with the client or a new attorney or a referral source.

Ron Bockstahler: Excellent. It

Kirsten Mayfield: sounds like the billable hour is kind of a deterrent for having that client relationship because if you want people to want to talk to you, you can't have them afraid that they're going to get billed for talking to you. So you guys, I know you guys talk about alternative fee arrangements, but is that like your prominent way of billing? Then is like fixed fee or or program based and that kind of thing.

Matthew McElwee: So for me, I I actually you know I still use the billable hour. It's it's sort of what clients expect in most cases. It's it's what we default to. So my solution to for clients that don't always like the global hour is is to offer alternatives the moment I'm I'm talking on that initial consultation. You know, so I I am always open to flat fee arrangements. We'll make retainers available if if they have steady corporate work over time, and we can sort of accurately predict that. The biggest quirk I have on that side is I tell this to every single client the moment they get you know engaged with us. I do not round up for the first six minutes. I have yet to have a single client that abuses that, and so I recommend that for anyone doing client counseling. If I, if we can handle it in five minutes and 59 seconds or less, just reach out. I want you to text me. I want you to email me. I want you to call me. I would rather address something in three minutes and not bill you a cent than have something explode into a problem because you were afraid of getting nickel a dime. It's one of the the three things I mention to every client when they sign on, and and they always always appreciate that.

Kirsten Mayfield: That's a great policy. I haven't heard that one before. That's good.

Jared Reynolds: And admittedly, I mean, I I do some billable work within the firm. Obviously, Matt does the most of it. But the one thing that I'll say that Matt does incredibly well goes into what we saw earlier is Matt is very good at just giving his clients quotes and giving him projections because he knows how much time it's going to take of his to draft a certain type of agreement or to deal with a certain type of shareholder dispute or to go through a round of financing for. A certain company, and he'll he he prides himself in staying very close to that quote. Of course, unforeseen things happen, but it's just a matter of being communicative with the client and saying, "Hey, well, you this unforeseen thing occurred. We're now going to see this rise to blank amount, but they're not surprised, and I think that's what they really appreciate working with Matt. And like you said, if it can be fixed in a quick call, and I and I tell my clients a similar thing is I find that my clients often stress a lot and worry about it being like a dumb question, or worry about them wasting my time, and they'll exert more brain power worrying and stressing about it than I could have just taken that off their shoulders. And that's what I want to be. I want to ease the burden. They're already going through horrible times. I don't want. I think there's already too much stigma in society of filing lawsuits. It's one of the biggest things I fight against people. Is they'll have a great case, and somebody will say, "I'm just really not the type to sue. And I try not to be crass, but I always say, "Oh, so you're the type that likes to be taken advantage of, then? Because the company, there's a lot of powerful players that are trying to make people think the worst thing that you can do in life is file a lawsuit, and that oh your neighbor's going to find out, and your name's going to be raked to the coals, and oh mr. Smith is the one to sue somebody when mr. Smith got ran over by a car. Like yeah, you should sue somebody, and I think the legal field sometimes needs to do better, and I mean it's certainly political at times. But there's a reason why everybody thinks that like the McDonald hot coffee case is about this greedy old lady that just wanted millions, and not this poor old lady who had third degree burns on her genitals. It's I mean there's a whole reason why that's a stigma, and I'm getting a little bit off topic now. No, that's

Kirsten Mayfield: on topic.

Jared Reynolds: But I think it all comes back to I want to be a resource to our clients, and so does Matt. And at the end of the day, if they can reach out to Matt to just get an answer, a quick question answered, and that avoids a whole downward spiral of horrible events that could happen if they didn't get that question answered. If they decided to just act on their own volition and not consult with their attorney because they were afraid of getting nickled and dimed, then sure, maybe that'd be great billable work for us in the long run because it would be more work. But we're as a firm, we're not trying to just work to work. On my end, I'm trying to get things from to disposition as efficiently as possible because that makes my time worth more and it gets me paid quicker. On Matt's side, he's not trying to just bill just to bill. He's trying to build existing relationships and great relationships based on quality work, and I think a lot of clients get sick of the attorneys that just bill for the sake of billing, and I think that contributes again back to what we were talking about of the the inherent waste in the field. I know so many friends of mine that have been just stressed to beyond belief during this pandemic because they're expected to still hit this arbitrary billable minimum, and they can't find the work to do, and that's just horrible. Just a very sad time for the industry and for the service of clients, which should be the main goal.

Ron Bockstahler: What you were just talking, it made me think of a call I was on yesterday. I was talking to the CEO of a tech company, and one comment he said was, "I always hesitant to call my attorney because I don't know how much it's going to cost me. That's like, cha-ching, cha-ching, and I'm like, "Is the subject really worth me calling that? And I-that's what he thinks about. And I'm like, "Wow, that you think about that, you know? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I was a little surprised that that's what he's going through in his mind.

Jared Reynolds: We saw that a lot in the beginning. We we actually have a couple of condo associations that we help out with, and they want their bylaws rewritten, or they want some sort of just a discussion on what would be the best process for them moving forward. And you find out they haven't talked to an attorney in maybe a decade plus because they're too afraid of what it's going to cost to talk with that attorney, it's sort of an easy sell to swoop in and say, "Okay, we'll tell you exactly how much it'll cost to talk with us, and we can be pretty cost effective because we are running on such an efficient basis that we can make profits off of things that I think other firms can't.

Kirsten Mayfield: So that kind of pulls into a question I have for you guys, not to put you on the hot spot, but because you're data collectors and because you guys are process builders, you have to have identified up some point where you had to pivot so far in your law firm, right? So, can you give us an example of something you you set up and then you saw this is not right? And you gave a little spin around.

Ron Bockstahler: I see some laughing. There might be there's a

Matthew McElwee: handful of things. We're we're sort of laughing on the video because we're dealing with this right now. You know, when we were getting started back in October, you know, so many months ago, it was basically just okay. What what's the bare minimum to get started. You know what? What technology do we need? What systems do we need? What what's absolutely necessary to get started? And it worked. You know, we were able to get work done. We we got launched right on schedule, but we are already noticing you know sort of the the cracks forming in our infrastructure. You know, to to fit what firms need to grow and grow efficiently. So right now we're we're already in the process of pivoting on all of our systems, all of our software. You know, rebuilding things constantly to make sure it's it's always at its most efficient. So we're reviewing most of our technology right now to make sure we still have the greatest fit with each category of thing we need and replacing what's not working, so that's always an undertaking, especially when you still have to push cases forward and and bill hours in the meantime.

Jared Reynolds: I think the biggest realization was us. It's something that we sort of know in the day to day lives of running a business, and you hear from other business owners of don't try to take everything on yourself. Be know when to hire other people for certain things or when to delegate things for certain things. And I think it became like the hip thing in the technology realm of trying to find the technology that like solves all of your problems and just helps with everything. And it sounds great, but is it really as effective as five other pieces of technology that are the best at those five things? And I think that's what we're realizing is we sort of thought that it'd be great to have one great platform that just takes care of everything, but just like in running a business, there's just frankly things that do things better than other software and other technology. And I think we're getting a lot more comfortable with realizing, okay, this is the best solution for issue A. So let's just go all in with that, and then now we only have four more issues to deal with. So then find finding the best issue for each of those, and that's been a big pivot of ours. And I think we're getting a lot more comfortable with it. With the idea that, like we mentioned earlier, we're we want we want to expand. I think we both inherently hate feelings of complacency and being content, and we're in a constant state of we're hiring people now. We're doing well, but it's that's not enough. We want to grow, and we want to look at next steps and look into the future.

Matthew McElwee: One of the things that is really important on that front, as we gear up for growth, is is finding you know solutions that still work even at scale. You know, so we we sort of double down on the things that function, and one of the things we brag about pretty regularly is actually Amata, because you know not only do we have our virtual office based there, but we use a lot of the ancillary services which scale with us. You know, so like if I use a lot of corporate paralegal work, Jared uses a lot of litigation paralegal work. If we hit capacity, rather than having to, you know, do a job search, you know, collect resumes, hold a dozen interviews, and take a risk on a new hire, I just reach out to the same email address I use for everything else, and yep, there's someone else who can help with that overflow. So, you know, solutions like that that are scalable to fit what we're trying to do, no matter whether we have you know one task to get done or 10, that's what we want to focus on for the firm to make sure you know it can accommodate three attorneys or 30 with with the same solutions in place.

Ron Bockstahler: I can kind of sum up what I've heard so far today, amongst many other things, was you know you guys have used you know experts in your legal fields incorporate infuse some technology into your practice so now you can service your clients at an affordable rate and still maintain your profitability. Absolutely right. That's the future. That's the future of law. So I think anyone that's not infusing that technology to allow them to do more with less is going to fall behind. You know, I remember in business school many, many years ago that the average Fortune 500 company stayed in business 20 years, and I don't think it's really changed all that much. And I would say if we looked at law firms, you know, we all think that we know these big ones and they're going to be here forever, but the reality is they're not. If they don't make changes, they go away, and then we forget who they were, really, really quick. So you always got to be incorporating that change into your practice of law. So kind of running down on our time frame. So we always like to finish with one question. I think this is really appropriate for both of you guys. So I'll ask it, and you know, first one jumps in, answer the question, but. What's the in the business of law? What's one thing that you would like to see changed?

Jared Reynolds: I mean, I in case it's not a surprise based on everything else I've said, I think I would like to see the waste completely dwindled down, and I think it goes along the lines of not only in the legal side, but I keep going back to court and and the amount of waste that was surrounding that. If you even just think about the like the the economic and the environmental effect of not having all of these attorneys drive to court every single day and be stuck in traffic every single day, I'm sure if you did a study on it. It it have great effects. I mean, I in the beginning of the pandemic, I thought it was amazing to see the environmental studies on how great the environment was doing in the beginning when nobody was traveling. Yeah, that was neat. I think that, of course, on the personal injury side and on the litigation side, it's an incredible shame that trials aren't happening, and that certain counties have fallen behind other counties in regards to adapting to these current states. I think Cook County is just an incredible place to be an attorney, and it's one of the most-I mean, largest, if not the largest court system, judicial system, I think in the country, if not the world, and I think Cook County can be sort of a beacon as a sense if certain adaptations to this modern age were made, opposed to being the court system that still is using carbon paper, and so I don't know. I think there's a lot of technology that can be incorporated for the betterment of the field, and to really be that progressive profession that the legal industry should be. I think it's a shame that our profession is always the joke of being so archaic and so old and so stubborn to change, and I'm hopeful that that is changing out of necessity now because of the pandemic. But that these changes stay in place because certainly, I mean, I think our firm is a great example that if you just buy into it, and if you recognize the value of a lot of these tools that are at our disposal, then you can make a profitable law firm accordingly. It always used to make me laugh how the the cool thing for law firms used to be to have those big conference rooms with the nice big like projector, and you could it made it seem like you could have a video conference with any single person in the entire world from law firm A's conference room. Now, did any staff in that law firm know how to do that? Absolutely not. And and any time I ever wanted to do it, would I have to like call IT or call somebody and and ultimately probably decide to just print out a full-page medical records instead. That is what I remember of being in these firms with these huge conference rooms, and and hopefully, we now see that we don't even need a huge conference room. You just need a camera in a semi decent laptop. So I think dealing with the waste in the industry is the biggest thing, and I think technology is a huge solution to that.

Ron Bockstahler: Excellent, Matt.

Matthew McElwee: On my end, you know, keeping with our theme of willingness to change, it doesn't just stop with technology. You know, I think it extends to the people involved as well. You know, even for firms conducting hiring, you know, we we have these sort of boxes for attorneys to fit into when they're building skills and working at other firms. But even for you know new attorneys, associates entering the the field, one size does not fit all in terms of how attorneys should be trained, how they should be taught to interact with clients, and how they should be allowed to to tailor their practice as it develops, you know. So for me, it's it's not just about technology and you know focusing on on new and exciting ways to service clients, but about giving attorneys tools to develop their own practices. You know, if if you're a second year attorney and and you love the law and you don't want to have to worry about building a book of business, there should be a firm that fits that and allows you to tailor your practice to skills and and building building your expertise. But if what you love, you know, I joke with Jared all the time that he knows every single person that I need to know. So I just talk to him. But if you love the people and the interaction and the business development, there should be a role for that, even as you're learning to be a functional expert. So yeah, being able to tailor the firm to fit not only the technology and the client needs, but also the the people in it that are its you know its its product and its service and its you know biggest asset. That would be an excellent thing for a firm to take into account.

Ron Bockstahler: Excellent. Well, thank you. That's great information.

Jared Reynolds: And I know we're running out of time, but I think I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention. I think as attorneys, there should just be this other than the arbitrary need to do pro bono work and do CLEs. I think there should be this feeling, a desire to give back to not only the community but also to the people coming after us, and I'm I'm very involved with law students, and so seeing, and in my mind, being involved with mentoring and mentorship is just networking. Still, I mean, law students are people too, in case people forget, and those law students one day are going to be attorneys and they're going to be judges, and they are some of the most stressed people. I'm in charge of the mentorship program for the LGBT Bar Association, or for Chicago's LGBT Bar Association, and we inherently I'm sort of the point of contact for these LGBT law students who are some of the most stressed people I know, and but they just need some guidance, and they're inherently all they're doing is school, and all they know is school on a day-to-day basis, and all they think of is networking for the purpose of getting that first job. But networking is everything thereafter, and if you sort of give them the support that we got when we were students, then you're inherently building a more progressive, progressive, welcoming, diverse legal field to sort of follow in our shoes, which I think should be the goal of every attorney, in especially in a city like Chicago, but in the country as a whole, is to create a better community to step into our shoes when we leave,

Ron Bockstahler: Jared. What's the best way for attorneys, people listening, to contact to reach you guys?

Jared Reynolds: Sure, my email address is [email protected] and I also can be reached at my direct line 312-508-3296 and I'm on Facebook, LinkedIn. Happy to talk with anybody through any means.

Ron Bockstahler: Excellent, Jared, Matt. Thanks for joining us. You've been listening to the 1958 Lawyer. We've been talking to Jared and Matt with RM Law Group. Give them a call. Network with them. They're available. So, what was the website one more time.

Matthew McElwee: That's rmlawfirm.com.

Ron Bockstahler: Rmlawfirm.com.

Jared Reynolds: Matt, do you want to do your contact information as well?

Matthew McElwee: Oh sure, yeah. It's very similar to Jared's. It's mm at rmlawfirm.com, and then 312-508-3287

Ron Bockstahler: Let's let's go back really quick because you know what, Jared. We didn't talk about. I know you're doing personal injury, but we didn't really get into your specifics. Can you give us like a quick one minute? Here's the things you focus on.

Jared Reynolds: Sure. So all types of personal injury, wrongful death, medical malpractice, and I do focus quite a bit on nursing home abuse cases. And like I mentioned before, it's I feel very fortunate to be able to take on cases that I think other solos or smaller firms can't take on because of the robustness of the corporate practice being able to sort of provide cash flow and allowing me to invest in much larger, bigger cases that we can sort of, I feel comfortable taking on those cases from a competent standpoint. So there's never a time where I want the money to keep us from doing so. So always happy to talk about different referral arrangements with different attorneys.

Ron Bockstahler: And to be fair, Matt, your clientele, who are you looking to talk to?

Matthew McElwee: For me, you know, if I'm looking at attorneys as referral sources, anybody you know outside corporate counsel that that needs deal counsel for equity financings, but more generally on the client side, you know I act as outside corporate counsel to startups. So anyone from a solo founder just getting started, looking to form their first entity, to you know a serial entrepreneur who's getting number three to ready to go. I'm happy to help with companies of any size,

Ron Bockstahler: gentlemen. This has been great having a conversation with you. Appreciate you joining the show, and we look forward to talking to you again in the near future. But wish you all the success in the in the world going forward.

Matthew McElwee: Absolutely. Thank you so much for the time.

Jared Reynolds: Thank you very much, and thank you guys for having us.

Ron Bockstahler: You've been listening to the 1958 lawyer. We'll talk to you next week.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.