Ron & Rebecca: How to Collect Without Conflict and Get Paid on Time

Voiceover: Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer, the show for attorneys who know the old model isn’t working anymore. The billable hour, the 12-hour day, the expensive office no one visits. Your hosts, Ron and Rebecca Bockstahler, are here to question all of that and more by exploring smarter, healthier, more flexible ways to run a law firm. No more burnout, no more outdated expectations. Just real conversations with attorneys who are proving there’s a better way. If you’re ready to build a law firm that’s profitable and livable, you are in the right place. Now, here are your hosts, Ron and Rebecca.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 lawyer, the podcast about the business of law. I’m your host Ron Bockstahler, joined by my co-host Rebecca. Today it’s just the two of us, and we’re talking about a number that decides whether your firm makes payroll, your accounts receivable. How many times have we talked about this just amongst an hour? 24 years of running a mod. How are we going to make payroll? Most attorneys are working hard, billing their hours, and then leaving a real chunk of the money on the table because nobody wants to have the collections conversation. Rebecca and I have spent 24 years at Amata watching the solo and small firm attorneys wrestle with this, and today we’re going to share what actually works, how to collect without conflict, and why your AR is the most important number in your practice.

Rebecca Bockstahler: It’s true, and I’m going to add this is a topic that attorneys ask us about privately, probably more often than anything else. Nobody went to law school to have to become a bill collector, and attorneys are generally really uncomfortable with it. So let’s talk about how to build a practice where you rarely have to be one.

Ron Bockstahler: All right, so let’s get to it, Rebecca. Let’s set the table with the big picture. When you say AR is the most important number, what do you mean, and why isn’t it revenue or billable hours?

Rebecca Bockstahler: Revenue and billable hours are fantastic, but cash is king, and so billed doesn’t. doesn’t mean it’s in your bank. Revenue on paper is not going to pay your rent. It’s not going to pay your payroll. It’s not going to pay any of your malpractice premiums. And you know what else is not going to pay your rent, but collected cash will. And I have to tell you, over the past 24 years, I could not count the number of times that attorneys have come to us and and have shown us that they have a great book of business and they have money that is going to be coming in, but it has not yet come in. And what that translates to us is us having to then look at our AR and figure out what kind of concessions we can make and how we can work together. And some of that can truly be avoided by just having the policies and procedures in place where collections doesn’t become uncomfortable.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, it’s many, many, many occasions where we became we became a firm creditor or not creditor financier because they’ve done they’re working hard they made did great business but they didn’t understand collections and what they need to do. In fact, according to Clio’s Legal Trends report, the average law firm collection rate is 90-3% So, for every dollar they bill, they actually collect 90-3% on average. So, seven cents of every dollar is going out the door. Stack that with realization, and and out of eight hour an eight-hour workday, a lawyer collects payments on only about 2.4 hours of work.

Rebecca Bockstahler: That hurts.

Ron Bockstahler: Ow, yeah.

Rebecca Bockstahler: People are working way too hard to not collect that money. There’s a lot of long hours and late nights, and you you need to be compensated for that. But let’s walk our listeners through lockup, the number most solo attorneys have never calculated. What is it, Ron? And what does it look like in the businesses that we’ve watched succeed and conversely fail?

Ron Bockstahler: So, so lock up is a reference from the time you do the work and prior to even billing it out to the time you actually collect money. And according to a Clio study, that’s 93 days. So you do the work, and you’re going to wait $93 to see a penny, that or 93 days to see a penny. That’s the that that period of time is called the lockout. So basically, the average firm is carrying about three months worth of work that hasn’t been paid, and you don’t may not know when it’s going to get paid. So if you’re doing $300,000 a year in revenues, you’re roughly sitting on $75,000 in limbo at any given time. Here’s the part that should scare people: the clock isn’t neutral. Rebecca, talk about what happens to an unpaid invoice the longer it sits.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Well, collection industry data is brutal on this. Your odds of collecting are about 90% inside the first 60 days, but if you go past 90 days, it drops to about 50-50. Past 180 days, you’re down to roughly 20% So time is not your friend when it comes to collections. Being kind is not going to help you in the end. Every week you wait, you’re voting just to write it off. Is there a number? Is there a number of attorneys should check weekly? Ron, what do you think? If a listener does exactly one thing, is it running an AR aging report, or what should be happening?

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, so I’m not a. It’s hard for me to say that weekly because I mean I know myself. I’m never going to check something weekly. I know most of the attorneys I work with were pretty. We’re everyone’s really busy, and we don’t necessarily have time to do that, but I think biweekly you should take a peek and see what you got going on and where things are at, and if if anything, if you need to get involved or you need have the person that’s doing making your collection calls, which is something we’re going to get to. It should not be you. You should not be making those collection calls. You know, this is kind of a good point. So I want to take we got a chance for a story, and I want to go back. I don’t know, 2020-one, years ago, when Amata kind of came into some collection issues, and we’d have just-I mean, 3040, 50% of our revenues would be sitting out 30 days out. I’m like, oh my goodness, what are we going to do? This is not a good thing. And I was always afraid to have a. And in fact, I remember you thinking I was going to lose clients if I did anything to try to. I don’t want to have that collections call, right? If I was going to go talk to him and I’m the one that sold him, the office space, the services, you know, everything we’re doing for him, I don’t want to have to go have that collections call. But it became really, really hard and awkward. Yep. And and so the longer I let it go, it’s kind of like you know I wasn’t addressing it. The worse it got, and it wasn’t until that I made decision. We just can’t survive as a company anymore, though at this rate it was going. And I decided to say there’s a a fee. We’re going to charge a late fee. And so, if your invoices do on the first, and you you get it usually on the 10th, so you got basically 2021 days to review, contest, and then pay your bill. If you don’t pay it in the first, you got to the fifth, and that’s like the that’s like the leniency, the the period. And then after the fifth, though, we’re going to charge a late fee. And it took about three months or three to six months of adjustment for our clients because they caused it. Oh, hey, you don’t mind just waving the late fee? And I would say, I’m sorry, I can’t do that, and it was the hardest conversations, and there were a lot of these conversations. Well, and if we’re

Rebecca Bockstahler: if we’re honest, it took 3060, 90 days not for them just to adjust, but for us to adjust and not say you’re right.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, we’ll go ahead and waive

Rebecca Bockstahler: it. Yes, you’re right. We’ll go ahead and waive it to the point that it almost became something that we had to decide, like if either stand behind it or don’t have it, because because it is just easier to go ahead and waive it. It’s more comfortable. But go ahead.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, so we you’re right. It took us a little time because I would say, oh yeah, sure. Eventually, I started saying no, and then eventually they stopped asking, and eventually they started paying on time, so we cured our problem that people just started paying because we stopped waiving the late fees. And the funniest thing is, we didn’t lose any clients because of it. They all just adjusted to what the new norm was. The norm is it’s due on the first, so you need to pay it. If you mailed it on the third and it didn’t get to us to the sixth, it’s late. You know that you you know we don’t see that as much anymore. We’ll talk about some alternative payment ways to actually increase your collections, but you definitely want to address it and and be upfront about

Rebecca Bockstahler: it, right? And and I think you know people go into partnerships expecting to pay and planning to pay, but there’s also people out there who say, you know, if they don’t ask me for it, then I’m not necessarily going to send it. So it is like you said, you need to communicate up front, but then have policies and procedures that back up what you need to do to collect that money. Absolutely. Let’s move on. So the stakes are clear. Let’s get into the without conflict part, which you’ve mentioned already, that you didn’t lose clients, so you know how to do this, because the reason always that attorneys are going to let receivables pile up, it’s not because they’re lazy; it’s because they’re uncomfortable with it, and the collections conversation feels like it could be something that causes an argument, and nobody wants to cause arguments unless it’s in a courtroom and you’re winning. So attorneys don’t want to burn a client relationship any more than we do, or invite a grievance. So Ron, what do you think tip number one is from our playbook? The collections process starts before the engagement letter is signed. That’s tip number one.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah,

Rebecca Bockstahler: talk about client selection and setting payment expectations up front, please.

Ron Bockstahler: All right, and and tip number two: bill like a business. You’re running a business. Frequency, clarity, and why the invoice itself is a communication tool, not just a demand for money. You want to make sure that you’re being really clear. Another great example I talked about our accounting firm, the Tax Group, because you know a few times a year, you get a pretty hefty bill. Would always they send they’d call me before they sent out their invoice and talk through what I’m about to see to make sure I was going to be comfortable with it, which actually worked. I was like, then I was never surprised when I got that invoice because they made that courtesy call, and then their invoice got paid. So communication, I think that’s tip number two. Is make sure you’re you’re always always communicating, and of course you’re building like a business.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Yeah, and let’s jump back up to tip number one for a hot second because, you know, I think we need to make sure that talking about client selection. I mean, you need to screen your clients. You need to know who your clients are. If a client can’t pay, it was your intake mistake, and so a written fee agreement with payment terms and remedies, a plan for how retainers are replenished once they’re used, a way that you’re communicating where they are with their retainers. That’s all very important. And if you discuss money openly in the first meeting, then it’s not an awkward topic moving forward because it’s always been part of your business relationship. So I think that that’s something that that people just need to incorporate it into part of their the very beginning that first meeting.

Ron Bockstahler: That’s interesting that that on the retainer because I know depending on your law practice, but a lot of our clients I know have retainers. They you know they they got IOLTA accounts, and so they manage cash, clients’ cash, and to help pay their bills. But in all the time I’ve worked with law firms, they never asked me to replenish my retainer.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Interesting.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah. So I think it’s one of the things they got to make. You know, look, you got a $10,000 retainer, and you burned it down to 2000 You should have some mechanism that says, “Hey, we need to replenish that retainer and get it back up to $10,000 or whatever they agree to. But those things are agreed to upfront, right?

Rebecca Bockstahler: Right. Which I guess speaks even more importantly about how important that would be because if you now were to use a new law firm and let’s say you put down a $10,000 retainer, burned through it, and they build you another 10,000 for a retainer, you would see that as a surprise because you’ve not had that with any of your other attorneys. So

Ron Bockstahler: yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca Bockstahler: I guess that’s even more important why it’s important to talk about it up front.

Ron Bockstahler: Yep. Tip number three:

Rebecca Bockstahler: make it easy to pay you. It’s the lowest hanging fruit in the entire industry, right, Ron?

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah. Another. We go to Clio. They did a lot of studies on this. They found that solo and small firms that accept online payments get paid more than twice as fast. And there’s a law pay 2025 legal industry report found that 59 of firms say simply accepting credit card and debit cards improve their collection rates. This is a solved problem. You know the tools exist, so use them.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Yep, I mean make it as easy as you can. Everything should be smooth, right? So offer online payments, payment plans. If that’s something you need, at the first sign that somebody isn’t meeting the expectations of payment, you need to be having a communication about that. So if you need to look at alternative ways of receiving payment, you’re doing that. Auto payments. I mean, if you can get clients who are okay with you running their card automatically, set it up. That makes it easier for both of you.

Ron Bockstahler: Real quick, while we’re talking about the payments methods, using credit cards, using debit cards, whatever it’s going to be, don’t be afraid to charge a fee. You know, Visa and Mastercard card are charging pretty hefty fees these days, so there’s nothing wrong with having a convenience fee. I know at a mine, there’s a convenience fee if you’re paying with the Visa or Mastercard, American Express, but if you’re paying with your ACH debit card, there’s no fee. So you give them two options: one has fee, one don’t. But if you’re going to be paying with a credit card, I remember back when we implemented the fee for credit cards, what started happening was when we started accepting credit cards because we were trying to you know improve our collections. People started taking their larger you know fee 6000 7000 a month and charge them on the credit card, and I started going, oh my gosh, look at these credit card fees that we’re paying, and they became substantial to the point where, you know, we couldn’t-it was-it was eroding our margins, so we had to implement a fee, and then a lot of those. And what they were doing is, they back then they wanted airline miles. They don’t get

Rebecca Bockstahler: points.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, I was to get my points. I need to get my points. I’m like, well, it’s great. You can get your points, but I got to charge you a fee to get you to get your points,

Rebecca Bockstahler: right? And and it’s funny because I think when we started doing it, there was part of it that felt. felt almost like it was. I don’t know. It that felt uncomfortable to me. But then I had seen it in other places, and I think then you just step back as a business owner and think everybody is doing this as a pass through. Other people just aren’t as upfront about it. You know, anybody who accepts credit cards is building that billing that feedback somehow, whether it’s worked into the price up front or it’s an additional line item, and I think that’s to be expected because once you are a consumer of a credit card company, you realize how those fees can add up really quickly.

Ron Bockstahler: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. All right, where are we going in from here? Let’s see. Let’s talk about timing. So, what do we have to lose if we we can’t collect our invoices in a timely manner? So, you know, net 10, whatever your your terms are, net 10, net 30, you want to look to get paid. But if you don’t get paid, and within the terms of that. Invoice. What happens at that point? I think that’s that’s kind of where we want to go at this point because I think this is some real, real information people need to understand. And if you’re you’re ignoring your collections issues, it’s going to get worse, and you’re never going to collect that money.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Right, because like we talked about earlier, what was it? 90 days? You’re at 5050 and over 180 days, you can pretty much just kiss it goodbye, and you’re accepting a write-off.

Ron Bockstahler: Trying to think of the numbers within the first 60 days, you got a 90% chance of collecting your money. If it goes from 60 to 90, you get a 50/50 chance collecting. If it goes past 90, there’s a 20% chance of collecting. That’s a huge drop-off. So you don’t want it to go past 90. You want to make sure you’re staying on it, and you and talk to your clients. If this, if it comes at that point, you want to talk to clients, and if they need a payment plan, you’re better off putting together a payment plan and working something out with them to get the money, get some portion of that money,

Rebecca Bockstahler: and and you don’t wait until then. So you know what you need to do is kind of build your own procedure. How are you going to handle this? To you know, kill them with kindness while you’re getting their money and collecting from them. So you start a cadence. You know, you start with a really friendly reminder. You can send it as an email, like, “Hey, yeah,

Rebecca Bockstahler: you know, you’re 10 days late. Just wanted to make sure that it’s on your radar. You know, by day 30, maybe you’re not sending emails any longer, but you’re calling them, and and when you call them, you don’t. I think that this is beneficial in every aspect of anybody’s life, but when you start a conversation that can be hard, lead with curiosity. You know, you’re not going to accuse them of anything, you’re just genuinely wanting to know what’s happening. So whether that’s that they are having their own collections issues, which is now impacting you, or maybe their non-payment was due to an issue that they had that they’ve not felt comfortable bringing to you, and so leading with curiosity, as opposed to just a real brutal collections call, allows the whole conversation to happen, and then both parties can make decisions and work through it in a way that feels more like teamwork than people being against each other.

Ron Bockstahler: Now that’s a great point because I remember we had Mary Rose on our team for many many years, happiest person you’ve ever, just super happy, and she’d make those calls, those collection calls, and I just like, gosh, she was so friendly and happy and bubbly, but collected money. She was like, oh my god, it was amazing. So yeah, you definitely get a lot farther being nice and kind and sending kind messages. And I remember, you know, we had to redraft some of our automated automated messages that went out for collections, like every third day, fifth day. Hey, make sure you pay before the end of the day. You’re going to see a late fee, and then like the seventh day that you know where you’re at. But making them really nice really changed. People wanted to pay you, so that really helped our collections. Was making those messages. You know, it was good to get them out there. And I remember the same people always called every month saying, “Hey, I got this message, and if like because you haven’t paid yet,

Rebecca Bockstahler: yeah. Well, and that’s the other thing too is utilize your billing system to send out the notices. I mean, automate what you can. Also, though, if you go back to Mary Rose, sometimes I think that people maybe were slow to pay just because they wanted her to call and talk to them because everybody liked her so much that they they weren’t mad that she was calling and asking for money because they were just happy to talk to Mary Rose.

Unknown Speaker: That was her monthly. She was really good at everything she did,

Ron Bockstahler: and they’d write a check and life was good. It’s funny. Yep. Yeah. Good. Well, let’s talk about let’s kind of as we’re leading into that. What are some of the mistakes that turn money problems into legal problems, and I think this is you know you can’t you can’t beat clients with club to get the money, right? You gotta be very very kind. And here’s one of the biggest mistakes. We’re gonna talk about because attorneys generally litigators they want to go first thing they want to do is I’m gonna sue, and it and there’s a couple different stats out there. I think we’re going to get to them here in a minute of the show, but when a lawyer sues a client for unpaid fees, it very often comes back as a malpractice counterclaim. Public published estimates range from about 1/3 of all malpractice claims starting started life as counterclaims to fee suits, and then it goes up to 4060 in a couple other studies. So the bottom line is, malpractice underwriters treat. Have you sued? I mean, it’s a quote, right? Have you sued a client for fees as grounds to decline or or surcharge coverage? So mistake number one: treating a lawsuit as your collection strategy, Rebecca. What should escalation path look like instead?

Rebecca Bockstahler: Well, fee suits have got to be the last resort, not the plan. That’s not your policy. You should have arbitration or mediation clauses in an engagement letter that lets everybody know how it’s going to happen and what how you’ll work through things. You don’t want to sue a client who never had the ability to pay because that was your intake mistake. So, you know that was written on the wall before it even started, and it should have just not started. Well, that’s that

Ron Bockstahler: up upfront conversation. You’re talking to them. You’re putting together a free arrangement, and in most cases, you’re going to be asking for a retainer, right? If the client’s the ones going to be paying you,

Rebecca Bockstahler: yeah. And if the underlying matter went badly, be honest with yourself about what a counterclaim exposure could be, because sometimes writing something off is the profitable decision, and I understand that that can feel hard because there have been times where you have to let things go because financially it’s the best decision, even though morally it doesn’t feel like it’s the not morally that’s the wrong word, but it it doesn’t feel like it’s the most fair decision. Like it it feels kind of personal and unfair, but it’s the best decision because at the end of the day, running your business isn’t about what feels fair to you. It’s about making sure you can pay your bills.

Ron Bockstahler: Oh, absolutely. We’re on. We’re on mistake two.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Mistake two. It’s the ostrich approach, letting AR age silently because the conversation is uncomfortable. So, Ron, you can connect this back to the decay curve from segment one for

Ron Bockstahler: us. Yeah, the sooner if you the more you wait to talk to someone, you know time passes, right? And we just went through the stats that you know if it goes past 60 days, it’s a 55th chance of collecting. It goes past 90, there’s an 80% chance you’re not going to collect. So don’t don’t be the ostrich. Don’t put your head in the sand. Get out in front of it. Be talking. Have communication going, and and not you, but have whoever the person you have making those. Who’s your Mary Rose? Who is making the calls for you to kindly talk to your clients and make sure they understand the invoices and there’s no issues and making sure you’re going to get paid. Right. I think that’s kind of what covers on that. You don’t want to. You you can’t ignore the problem. It’s just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger on you,

Rebecca Bockstahler: right? Avoidance isn’t kindness.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, and remember, you did the work; you deserve the money.

Rebecca Bockstahler: And also, are you continuing to do work, but there’s fees left unpaid? In which case, you need to figure that out because if you’re never going to be able to collect those, then maybe it’s time to stop putting more of your time into it as well. Yep. So, yeah, communication is key all the time.

Ron Bockstahler: Mistake all the

Rebecca Bockstahler: time.

Ron Bockstahler: Billing hygiene failures that create the disputes in the first place. Bring us home on this issue.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Well, your invoicing and how you invoice is really what sets the stage for all this after that initial meeting where people know what the expectations are. So you can’t be too vague. You know, if somebody gets a bill that says 10 hours research, that’s not really enough. So you need to have the matter. You need to have the detail of how the hours are spent. You need to detail who did the work on this on your staff. Nobody wants a surprise bill. So you know, if the scope of a work has changed. You need to make sure that you’re talking about that and probably documenting it. So as you start to bill for that new scope, people aren’t asking what’s going on. You know, 60 days down the road when they don’t remember that the scope of the work changed, and you know, sloppy billing errors in billing will slow down billing more than anything because once people start feeling like they need to go through every invoice with a fine tooth comb, it’s going to slow down getting paid and it’s going to take away some of the trust.

Ron Bockstahler: That has me, you know, get a sidetrack real quick, thinking through some of the conversations I had on collections when people call me and that’s when they have issues with the prod, the work product. You know, it’s 90 days down the road. We our paralegal did a bunch of work. Maybe they put in 2030, hours for the client. The client got the invoice and didn’t hear from the client. Of course, we didn’t do a good job of communicating and talking to the client. And then 90 days later, when you know someone’s trying to call a collector, like you know, I didn’t like that work anyway. It wasn’t very good. Well, that’s not the time to have that conversation, right? If you don’t like something, you should be talking right away. But I or our company, Moda, should have been calling the client saying, “Hey, we want to talk through this invoice real quick before you get it, then know what you’re going to get. So it’s kind of like I said, our accounting firm does for me. That’s exactly what we should have been doing back when we were having those issues, and and then all of a sudden, those we don’t like the quality of the work 90 days after the work’s already been submitted and used used on a case,

Rebecca Bockstahler: right? Yeah. So, I mean, the better, the more detailed your billing can be, and the more conversations, and at the very least, that call it 30 days, which is an opportunity to bring that up as opposed to 180 All right, Ron. Rapid fire to finish, one thing each. The single collections habit you’d install in every solo practice tomorrow if you can.

Ron Bockstahler: I want to say collections, collections, collections, but let’s just put it right up up the front. Talk about it in the engagement letter. What the expectations are. Be really, really clear about it. And then also, if something goes wrong, make sure they know to reach out. Let’s talk about it before it becomes an issue.

Rebecca Bockstahler: Yeah, I would say making an accounts receivable review something that you put on a reminder for yourself to do regularly, and knowing that once you hit 60 days, that money is just going to start being harder to recover. So get to as soon as you can. That would be my quick tip.

Ron Bockstahler: This is a you know mid mid year kind of mid year. We’re in July now, and we’ve kind of gone through looking at your taxes, evaluating where you’re at for the year. Most of us are like, hey, it’s where we’re at for the year. We know we’re kind of getting an idea where we’re going to finish. So talk about retirement planning, those things we’ve kind of gone into collections. We talked yes last week. We talked about oh accounting CFO numbers, numbers, numbers. A lot of finance. Next week we’re going to be talking about the different billing models that are out there today. We got Bill Reynolds coming in. Bill’s professor over at Chicago-Kent College of Law, also runs his own ERISA practice, so very very attuned is what’s happening out in the market with different billing models. So look forward to next week. Great conversation with Bill. Any other points you want to hit on today, Rebecca?

Rebecca Bockstahler: No, I think that you know we’ve watched a lot of firms get it right, and we watched firms get it wrong, and it was hard to condense that into 30 minutes. But I think it’s an important thing to talk about, and just remember that because something’s uncomfortable, probably means that it needs to happen for sure. If it makes you uncomfortable, you need

Ron Bockstahler: to do it. Here’s lesson learned. I’ll share my last lesson. If it’s uncomfortable for you and you’re not good at it, find someone that is. You shouldn’t be making those collection calls yourself anyway. You know this is why I talk to a lot of people about using a modest fractional support person. A fractional admin can make these calls. They can assist with these things. This isn’t something for a bookkeeper. This isn’t something for a CFO. This is something for an admin person that has those skills, and that’s exactly what a fractional admin has. So, hire an amount of fractional admin to assist with your billing, but also to make your collections calls. Be friendly and nice with your clients, and keep you out of that loop. Takes the

Rebecca Bockstahler: personal the personal feelings out of it.

Ron Bockstahler: Absolutely. That’s all we got for today. Great conversation, Arby. Really appreciate that. I know both of us got a ton of experience in working and figuring out ways to make collections work successfully. And here we are, 25 years later, and it’s going really well. So, if you’re running to practice, if you heard something today makes any sense to you, please you know give us a call if you got questions, but implement something to improve your collections. So that’s all we got now. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, leave us a review, and share it with a colleague who could use it. The 1958 Lawyer is brought to you by Amata. For more than 30 years, Amata has helped law firms of all sizes do more with less. Built on the five pillars: fractional support staff, virtual office options, office space, legal community, and marketing support. Whether you’re a solo practitioner just starting out or an established firm looking to right size your overhead, Amata gives you the infrastructure of a big firm without the big firm price tag. Learn more at AmataCorp.com. Until next time, work on your firm, not just in it.

Voiceover: Thanks for listening to The 1958 Lawyer. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you’d like to hear more about Ron, Rebecca, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com. That’s amataoffices.com. All the links are also in the show notes.