Ryan Kimler: How a Fractional CFO can Help a Firm’s Profitability

Strickland Bonner: So you're a lawyer, and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that is your host Ron Boxtaller. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer. I am your host Ron Bockstahler. Today we are joined by CFO Ryan Kimler, founder of Financial Clarity. Ryan's firm works with solo and partnered practice law firms, bringing them financial clarity to grow their law practice into successful and profitable businesses-something that we all want. Ryan, welcome to the show.

Ryan Kimler: Thanks a lot, Ron. It's great to be here today.

Ron Bockstahler: Absolutely. Let's get right down to it. I mean, why does a law firm need a CFO?

Ryan Kimler: That's a great question. So a lot of people, you know, they hear the term CFO, and the first thing that they think of is probably Google or Apple, right? Some large company, and then they think I don't need a CFO. I'm just a small business owner, right? However, a CFO's job is really to track profit and cash flow, and then go analyze the company's financial strengths and weaknesses, and process what the corrective actions should be. So even you know small businesses, you know, in order for them to continue to grow and be more profitable, they need a CFO. They need someone in their corner that can analyze the numbers, look at the financial strengths and weaknesses, and propose corrective actions.

Ron Bockstahler: It's interesting. I remember when PPP first came out back in was that April of 2020, and we did a live webinar on it, trying to introduce a lot of our law firms to you can go get PPP. You're qualified, right? You qualify for PPP, but you have to have done last year's taxes.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah,

Ron Bockstahler: and I was shocked at how many like, man, I'd like this is great, but I can't apply because I haven't even filed my 2019 taxes. Yeah, or 2018, I think I was. It was going back, and I was surprised with what I considered the financial lack of financial discipline at so many firms. How can we change that? What kind of process can be put in place? Let's say I'm a brand new attorney going to go off on my own. Maybe I only have $500,000 book of business to start with, so it's not big, but you know potentially could grow. What do I need? How do I get started?

Ryan Kimler: Yeah, absolutely. So you know the big thing that you know we bring to our clients when when we're working with them is you know we we really want to be their guide and you know help them understand that accounting and finance doesn't have to be the scary part of your firm, right? It doesn't have to be the unknown part that it's like, I don't want to go talk to my accountant, right? You know, we want to be your guide, we want we want to be your friend, we want to help you out, we want to give you a clear direction and clean financials, and bring you clarity around the numbers of your law firm, and and I think that's what every firm needs. You know, one of the big things that's changed over the last five years is you know with technology and Zoom and things like that, and we've advanced so far because of the pandemic. You know, attorneys you can go out now and find accountants and CFOs that specialize in working with law firms, as our firm does, and you don't have to just go to the generalized accounting firm or the generalized bookkeeper down the street that handles everybody's small business in town. That's kind of a catch 22 because they aren't specialized, and so they don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of a law firm and how to help you. And as an owner of a law firm, you don't necessarily know what's out there and what's available, of how much help you can really get from a financial partner that can work with you that specializes in law firms and has been exposed to lots of different law firms and lots of different systems.

Ron Bockstahler: Now, Ryan, let's talk a little bit the financial model. I think a lot of firms say I'm a a two partner law firm and we're ready to hire someone.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah,

Ron Bockstahler: put some numbers behind it. What's it mean to hire someone? I mean, do they? I mean, can you help them financially justify the hire? I guess is the question.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah, absolutely. So the you know a lot of our clients we put on profit first, which if you're not familiar, it's basically a way of dividing your income that comes into the firm into a few different buckets, so you can cover your owner payments, your taxes, and your operating expenses. And so one of the first things that we look at is, you know, what's it going to cost to hire this person? And for that, we use a couple different online tools to calculate like payroll taxes and estimated benefit costs and things like that, do you have the money that's been allocated into your operating expense bucket to go out and hire that person? Because if you don't have the money, you can't hire the person, right? Then you just you're just going to be shorting yourself profit and cash flow in the future. So that's one of the. First things that we look at, and then one of the second things that we look at is okay. Let's say you do have the money, and you do have enough in your operating expenses with paying all of your other bills, paying everything else. What can you expect that person to bring in, and get you know as far as and handle as far as a caseload, so that hiring that person is not just a cost, but it actually is brings value to your firm, and you're bringing in more money. So those are the big two things that we start with and look at. The first one being, can you even afford it?

Ron Bockstahler: Right. Are you familiar with it, or I guess I know you're familiar with it. But let's talk to the third, third, third. You know, if you're a large a law firm or accounting firm, I think they have real similar models. You're going to hire a an associate. I think even a partner. You would look at okay, your salary is going to be a third, overheads going to be a third, which

Ryan Kimler: is

Ron Bockstahler: their benefits, office space, whatever it takes to employ them, and then a third is profits. Yep. So I think too many firms don't think like that, or small firms don't think like that. They just oh I got a lot of work I'm going to go hire someone but say I bring someone in for $100,000 are they going to generate $300,000 in revenue

Ryan Kimler: right yeah that's that's tough and yeah and I think a lot of attorneys you know don't look at that right away and and that's probably one of the first things that they should be looking at and you know I we have definitely come into firms where, you know, we put them into a profit first system, and unfortunately, you know, we kind of figure out through some analysis that they've hired too quickly, and then they have to go have the unfortunate conversation of letting someone go. I mean, that's tough. But like you said, you know, using the third, third, third rule, looking in advance before you ever hire that person is really, you know, is doing your due diligence is really what should happen.

Ron Bockstahler: We deal with that on the staffing side. They go hire a paralegal, but they don't got enough work. You know, fulfill the third, third, third model, which means they're giving up their profits.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah,

Ron Bockstahler: it's interesting. Let's talk a little bit about banks. I know we chatted offline just a little bit. You know, I know I've gone to banks and I've gone to investors and other businesses, and it's you got to have someone in your corner. Yeah. So how do you help law firms either go secure financing? I guess was the question.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah. So the first thing is, is that any bank you go to, as far as going to get funding, you're going to have clean books. You're going to have to have, you know, all of your expenses updated and all of your, you know, up to date financial statements. So that's the first thing that CFOs can help with, as well as, you know, then once you have those financial statements, your CFO is going to know those financial statements and know what's going on, know how cash flows through your business, and having a CFO or a financial professional in your corner when you go to a bank to go get funding is really, you know, giving you a leg up. It's a big advantage, brings a lot of credibility to the table, and as being a financial person, they're going to be able to look at how cash flows through your business and kind of assess before you even get to a bank how much risk is there? How much you know? How much risk tolerance is there? And then they can have that conversation at the bank of how much risk are they willing to take on, and also kind of advise you as far as you know maybe you don't have as much risk as what the bank thinks that you have, and where to go from there. You know what you know is the interest rate really reasonable for the amount of risk that's there, right? You kind of get your own second opinion from a person that you trust and that's on your side, that's not sitting across the table from you.

Ron Bockstahler: So you know, law firms a service industry. So looking at historical data, I wouldn't say useless, but you're kind of on the assumption that you're going to repeat that that level of business. So have it. Is it beneficial for to have a law firm when they're going in to get maybe a line of credit established to have a forecast based on historical revenues?

Ryan Kimler: Yes, absolutely. And I would say not only having a forecast, but also a plan put together of, you know, let's say you project revenue growth, revenue increase. What's your plan to get there? You know how many cases at how many average case value dollars, and that's something that a CFO can definitely put together for you. That we do on a monthly basis with our clients is you know updating what their what their targets are, what their projection is, and then you know keeping track of those numbers of how they're doing on a scoreboard so that they can see it and know where they're at, whether they're meeting what they want their target to be or not.

Ron Bockstahler: It's almost like playing a game of baseball. You're looking at scorecard and you say, "Hey, where am I at? You know, it's coming into the seventh inning. Need to score some runs here.

Ryan Kimler: Absolutely, absolutely. That's exactly what it's like, and it really gives you know the firm owner an idea of what's working in the business, what's not working, and whether or not they're on pace and on track to meet their target, that's actually probably one of the biggest problems that we or challenges that we run into working with firms is that they don't have a scoreboard. They don't know where they're at. They don't know if they're winning or losing the game. And you know they're just kind of running their firm, and if they don't make enough money at the end of the month, then they just start working harder and harder and harder in their firm without kind of digging in and finding out what's going on.

Ron Bockstahler: You know why you're not making the money, whatever you address. Yeah, that kind of leads me into you know what many lawyers are frustrated by that financial aspect of running a law firm. How can you get help get them past the frustration, so they can focus on practicing law.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah, absolutely. So I think a lot of it comes with you know taking the the majority of the work off their plate. So you know we've we've developed a system that you know really what I did was I sat down and you know I've worked with a little over 200 law firms. I sat down and looked at okay, what's the operations as far as on the financial side, when it comes to accounting and their CFO work, you know what has to happen in order for us to get clear reports and develop a scoreboard. And you know, I developed, you know, what parts can the accountant take off of lawyer's plate? What parts does the lawyer absolutely have to do? And then, if they have an assistant, what parts can the assistant take? And you know, through that process, you know, we really came down to an attorney needs to do their billing, you know, ideally through some sort of CRM, and an attorney needs to pay bills that that they're paying personally if they don't want an assistant, you know, handling it or what or what have you. But eliminating a lot of the other tasks and getting you know the attorney out of you know those other time sucks, if you will, can really help them you know focus back on practicing law, and then also you know at the end of the month you know a simple one-hour meeting with your accountant or CFO to give you an update and and look at your scoreboard and know where you're at and give you a clear heading for the next month and the quarter coming up can really be efficient for the attorney and get them back into practicing law when they have a clear direction and a clear path moving forward.

Ron Bockstahler: Just hearing you say it thinks I think about how much stress you could take off an attorney's plate just on an average day? You know, you don't have to worry about this. You know where you're going now. You just got to focus on where you're going to get your business from. Yeah, which is much easier.

Ryan Kimler: Absolutely,

Ron Bockstahler: I like that. What are you seeing as some of the biggest mistakes out there that's happening within law firms?

Ryan Kimler: So one of the biggest one, I one of the biggest ones I think, from from a cash flow perspective, is not taking in trust funds. So you know the the big thing in law school is you know don't don't screw up your trust account, right? And don't overdraw it, right? And you'll get audited, and all these all these scare tactics, all these things, and you know even if you're doing contingency cases, right? I know that the common thing in the contingency space is, well, we do it, you know, basically up front for free, and when we win, we take you know 1/3 of the fee or whatever your percentage is, right? And they're not taking a trust fund up front. The big problem with that is, is that when you go to the courthouse and you pay a filing fee or you go do whatever expense the case needs. You're taking cash that you've earned, you know, into your business probably from other cases, and you're paying it out, and it's not getting billed sometimes for months, right? Because you know if your case lasts for months, and so it's cash that you've earned that you could be using in your own firm to pay your own expenses, rent, you know, employees, what have you, and instead you're paying it out on a client case. Now, granted, it gets booked as an asset, right? It's almost like it's almost like you're giving your client a short-term loan. It's almost like you're being a bank. And actually, you know, quick tip, I guess, a good check on your accountant if they know what they're doing or not, is they should have an account on your balance sheet in the asset section that says like advance client costs or client costs that you expect it back. You buy IRS guidelines, you cannot expense those items, so therefore it's not writing down your taxable income, and that's really the reason for it. Is the IRS wants their money, you know? So paying that cash out, you know, is really not helping you. It's not helping you write down your income, reduce taxes. You know, it really should be your client's cost. And even if it's a contingency case and you can collect 500 bucks on a retainer, right? I mean, or whatever it is, not having to pay that out of your firm and acting like a bank keeps more cash in your bank in your firm, and is really a big mistake that I commonly see when I work with firms that that do contingency work or even not do contingency work and just don't collect enough trust funds.

Ron Bockstahler: Real quick, on the so you take money out of your post-tax income and you pay a fee for a case that's a on a contingency, you can't charge interest on that to the client, correct?

Ryan Kimler: Correct, you cannot.

Ron Bockstahler: So this was interesting. I was listening to someone at Esquire Bank was talking with Len Lerner, who's a big. Personal injury attorney out of Vegas, and so Glenn for years was finance, basically financing his own cases, and realized how crazy it was because he was losing money. Whereas you know he can he works with Esquire Bank, and he goes back and just get you know they finance a case, and that's how he's paying those fees, and then is able to charge the client those fees plus whatever interest you know that he had to pay the bank.

Ryan Kimler: Sure.

Ron Bockstahler: So

Ryan Kimler: yeah, that's much better than paying it out yourself.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, it's a great point you bring up. But I think so many attorneys are just missing, and they think, well, I got the cash, I'm just going to do it, which is kind of probably what I would do, and you know, without being educated and understanding it. So this is a good reason that you need to be working with the CFO. It's going to save you money. And what happens when something goes wrong with the case? You just take a loss.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah, absolutely. If if you if you take a contingency case and let's say you have a bunch of filing fees, let's say it adds up to $500 and you do lose the case, and then at that point you do not expect your client to pay you. At that point, what happens is is then that does become an expense for your law firm, which means it does write down your taxes. However, obviously you are out the cash, and you know it's already it's already flowed out of your firm.

Ron Bockstahler: So now you just lost money taking a case. Yes, yeah, you mentioned Ialta accounts. Let's talk about Ialta accounts and what are some of the do's and don'ts in managing an account.

Ryan Kimler: Sure, absolutely. So one of the things that I've learned is do not make sure that your credit card company is is not taking credit card fees out of the trust account. If they are, that's something that has to be replaced and becomes a real headache. But a lot of merchant companies do like to do that, so that's that's a pain. I like working with LawPay because they don't; they only take fees out of your operating account, never out of your trust account. Another another don't is there are several big cities that are on state borders. So like Kansas City, right? If you're in Kansas City, Missouri. You know, you might have work in Kansas. You might have work in Missouri. You do have to have, if you're operating in both states, you do have to have two separate trust accounts, and you need to keep those funds separated. You know, Kansas City is not the only one. Like Philadelphia would be another example, right? Pennsylvania and New Jersey keep those trust accounts separated, and you cannot commingle funds, so that is those are those are two of a couple of the most common mistakes. And then a third one would I would say would be I don't I don't like to see attorneys write checks out of their trust account because a lot of times they'll go to the courthouse they'll write a check for a fee it'll come out of their trust account and then before they get back to the courthouse, they do, or sorry, their office from the courthouse. They do go and do a million other things, and then they forget that they wrote that check. It doesn't get into the ledger, and before you know it, you know you've shorted a client ledger in your trust account because you kept you know taking fees on down the road. So I don't like to see attorneys write checks if they can avoid it, or if you're going to write checks, really what I like to see is I like to see attorneys print checks from their office, you know, have your assistant do it or whatever, and take them to the courthouse with you. I know it's tough because you don't always know the fees that you're going to need, but that's what I like to see happen. And then another another common mistake is run just running all revenue through the trust account, that is not that is absolutely not a best practice. But I know some attorneys, you know, they they just tell their system anytime you're collecting a payment, you know, just run it through the trust account, right? And then they go through and they sort out what's earned and what's not earned. That is absolutely not a best practice. I do not like to see that. I mean, really, what it comes down to is you just need to educate your assistant or tell them, you know, this is trust or no, this is not trust. But that's a that's a common mistake that I see, and yeah, you're basically just you're bringing in revenue through the trust account and then just moving it all the time over to the operating.

Ron Bockstahler: But it sounds like it's more of a, it can be a real management headache. So, you know, what can you, what can a law firm, what can an attorney do to reduce the time spent on trying to manage these accounts?

Ryan Kimler: Yeah. So, clear operating procedures are very important. You know, a lot of times I like to see my attorneys collect a trust retainer at the beginning that they feel is going to support the case one time, and then as they do their billings, they can just transfer out of the trust account and transfer the earned funds, and then they don't have to deal with additional payments. Another great management tool is just having some sort of CRM, right, online that that everybody in your office can access at any given time and see the trust balances, right? You don't have to share all the revenues with with everybody in your office, but at least let them see trust balances so that they know whose whose ledger has money, whose doesn't, and you know it saves them. And it's all in one system, so that you don't have attorneys that are keeping. Separate ledgers on paper in their own office, and it's not getting in all into one system. That is that is the biggest, most important thing that I've seen over the years is just get it all into one system that everybody can access and be in the know, and keep the system up to date. You know, even if it's a daily entry you have to make, keep it up to date, and from there things run pretty smoothly.

Ron Bockstahler: Do you get any systems you're recommending?

Ryan Kimler: So I am a certified advisor with Clio. However, you know that's not the only one. I mean, there's there are a lot of systems out there. I've worked with Practice Panther as well. My case, Case Fox. There's you know there's a lot of systems out there. They really all cover their basis, but I do like Clio quite a bit. It really has helped keep a lot of attorneys that we've worked with from overdrawing their trust account because they can go and pull that ledger up really quickly on their own.

Ron Bockstahler: All right, well let's stay on the software topic. There are a couple tips that you can share that will improve profitability quickly?

Ryan Kimler: Sure. So I did mention Law Pay a little bit earlier, right? Everybody, everybody's in the game now of collecting credit card fees, right? And that's how we collect payments from a lot of our customers. I actually encourage the law firms that I work with to change the expectation right up front, and if you can collect ACHs, right. So with LawPay right now, their lowest credit card fee is 1.95% plus an additional 20 cents per transaction versus a flat ACH is $2 So let's say you're taking in a $1,000 retainer, running the credit card route, you're paying at least 19, almost $20 ACH route, $2 right? And a lot of times, I think it's just the expectation that the assistant or someone at the front desk sets up front and says, "Okay, we'll we'll take your credit card to pay for this. Which, well, instead, you know, if you say we collect payment by ACH, because a lot of times, what I think their clients probably do is okay. Here's my credit card. They put it on the credit card, and then a month later, their statement comes out and they get the bill and they take the money out of their bank account and they go pay their credit card bill. So they they had the money right in their in their bank account, and taking the ACH you know keeps the fees down and you know $20 versus two, $18 times all of your transactions. If you you know as many as you can get transferred over, those savings can really add up. So that's one thing that I like to do. And actually, right now all of our clients at our firm are is on ACH.

Ron Bockstahler: That's a great point, and we're seeing it everywhere. I donated money recently, and you know they say you're paying the 3.95% you know, fee if you're paying with credit card, so it's just become a part of everywhere. So I don't think you know, attorney shouldn't be hesitant to say we accept ACH, but if we're going to accept credit card, you're going to charge you the fee process.

Ryan Kimler: Absolutely, that's another way to do it. And I would encourage attorneys to check their fees too. I know that there are some payment processes are out there that are pretty expensive. Law pay is one of the cheapest that I found. You know, saving let's just say 1% on all your credit cards. Well, you know, figure figure up what your figure up what your credit card revenue was for last year. That can really that can really add up to some big money. Another another tip that I would get into as far as softwares go, attorneys are a lot like accountants. We see this flashy new software that we think, oh my gosh, this is the perfect fit into what I need. This I, you know, this is this is going to be so great for my firm. You go and you sign up for it. You give them a credit card. You start a 14 day free trial. You know, sometimes you use the software for a month. Sometimes you don't use the software at all, and then they just start charging your credit card. And month after month after month, you get hit with it. You know, it's the common subscription model. It's very common in the marketplace nowadays. And so I like to. That's one of the things that we do is we like to review your recurring charges once a quarter. You know, recently I sat down and did that with an attorney. We took 4045 minutes. This was the first time that I had done this with this client, and we ended up saving him $489 a month of just subscriptions that he had signed up for over time and just was not using, so that's almost six grand a year, from 40-five minutes of of effort. So that's a that's a great exercise that I really like to run through. And if you if you want to do it the the easy kind of a pain in the butt way, it'd be to just go get a new credit card and cancel your old one, and all these you're going to get all these notifications to your email box of, hey, your credit card failed, your credit card failed, your credit card failed, and then you can go through your emails and look, do I really need this? Do I really not? So that's another way to do that as well. It's kind of a pain in the butt, but that's another way to do that as well.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, but you really can uncover what you're spending. Most of us, I don't, I mean, I don't have any idea.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah, and it's really important. You know, it can really, really add up over time, and you know, I think, you know, the $5,500 or $6,000 that we saved over him over the next year for 40 or 45 minutes of his time, I think, is pretty well worth it.

Ron Bockstahler: So, I mean, that's a quarter million dollars over a 40-year law firm career,

Ryan Kimler: yeah. Over over 40 minutes of work,

Ron Bockstahler: yeah. You know, look, you got. I know you put a lot of stuff out there. You do a lot of writing. You're published in quite a few areas. Do you have anything that's coming up? Any events that people can tune into to hear more?

Ryan Kimler: We do. So Thursday, October 14, we are going to be having a webinar around financial education, and I'm really excited about that webinar. I also have a really special giveaway for all the webinar attendees that are going to show up. So definitely look for that. Yeah.

Ron Bockstahler: And what's a? I got a couple more questions, but where can attorneys reach out, and where can they reach you online?

Ryan Kimler: Sure, absolutely. So www.financialclarityllc.com is my home webpage, and I have a contact page on there. You can book a call with me, and then also I'm on LinkedIn as well. You can look up Ryan Kimler on LinkedIn, and actually, Ron, you and I are connected. So anybody, as long as you're connected with Ron, I should show up as a second contact or a second second degree connection. I guess is what they call it.

Ron Bockstahler: You know, I'll tell listeners I've listened, I've read a lot of the content you've put out. It's been awesome. So I think you've really got some great stuff out there. You know what you're talking about. I think you can help a lot of the the solo partner practice law firms out there that they don't really want to deal with it. But it's one thing to make money, but you got to not spend it. Also, it's kind of a combination. That's how the P and L works. I always tell people the P and L has a profit and profits and expenses. You got to pay attention to both of them.

Ryan Kimler: Yeah, absolutely.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, you get to the end product. So, so Ryan, real quick, is there anything else you want to add that you want to go over that I haven't asked questions on?

Ryan Kimler: I think we've done a really good job of covering, you know, quite a bit of the the big topics and challenges that law firm owners deal with. I guess the the biggest thing is, you know, I just I guess I would want your listeners to know that, you know, I think I said this a little bit in the beginning, but accounting and finance doesn't have to be the hard, scary, unknown part of your firm, you know. I know that it's not it's not necessarily a lawyer's expertise. Just like my expertise is not practicing law, you know. But you get with the right guide, get with the right person or the right firm, and it can really change how you view that section of your business and really give you power in managing that part of your business, and it can bring real change to your law firm in profitability and cash flow. Both are super super important. You know you can't operate a day in business without cash. So so yeah, I guess that's I guess that's the biggest thing that I'd want your listeners to know. It doesn't have to be hard, and and there's there are professionals out there that specialize in working with law firms, and you know they're easier to find now in the Zoom world that we live in. And you know there are people out there that can help.

Ron Bockstahler: So, as coming from a partial CFO serving over 200 law firms, and so from your perspective, what's one thing in the legal profession, that you would like to see changed,

Ryan Kimler: I would say one thing that I'd like to see changed. I would say our court system. Like I would really love to see our court system change. You know, it's such a tough one. You know, it. You know these jury trials. You know, made up of of your friends and peers, right? For criminal trials, I mean, they just don't-they just don't always work, you know. So that's a problem, you know. I think the time that it takes to get through a case can be a problem. Our our court system is definitely an imperfect system. I'm sure that you know attorneys have even more frustration with it than I do, but you know, it's as far as the legal side goes. I mean, that's something that I would like to see change. You know, we've got to we've got to get together and figure out something better as far as you know for lawyers for the people. You know, I know that being a lawyer is high stress job, right? I mean, you're you're trying to go and win cases, not just for your clients, but also for you know the families of the clients that you're working for. You've got a lot of people that are depending on you, and I think you know a lot of times you work really, really, really hard in your law firm, and self care is not always at the top of the list. You know I can definitely relate when when tax season rolls around and and our clients are demanding a lot from us, you know, self care and family time is not always at the top of the list, and that's something that I would that I want to see changed. You know, I want to help the law firms that we work with make a strong profit and a strong cash flow and have the the time that they want to. For themselves and for their families to live their life. That's something that absolutely, you know, I'm out to cause change in.

Ron Bockstahler: While you're talking, one question came up that I'm sure most attorneys probably already know the answer, but I don't. So I'm going to ask the question: Pro bono work. Is there any kind of tax relief for pro bono work?

Ryan Kimler: Yes. So if you if you build the case as as you normally would, right? So these are like you know I let's say your hourly rate's $300 an hour, right? I'm just throwing out numbers, but you build the case, you bill the hours, right? That value, whatever it comes out to be, let's just say it's five grand, right? Can really be put on as donated time, right? When it comes to doing your tax return and things like that, that should be able to be expensed.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, so it's good benefit to doing some pro bono work. So if you can free up time by hiring a CFO, do some pro bono work and lower your tax burden.

Ryan Kimler: There you go.

Ron Bockstahler: Awesome, Ryan. It was great having you on the on the show today. Let's repeat one more time. Best way for our listeners to contact you:

Ryan Kimler: www.financialclarityllc.com, or you can find me on LinkedIn, Ryan Kimmler.

Ron Bockstahler: Ryan, thanks for joining the show today, and thank you for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, please share it with other attorneys, and if you would like to be a guest on the 1958 Lawyer, shoot me a message at [email protected] and let's talk. Until next time, have a great weekend.

Ryan Kimler: Thank you very much for having me today, Ron. Absolutely. Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.