Stephen Seckler: Coaching Can Make All the Difference!

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that is your host Ron Boxtaller. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Our guest today is Stephen Seckler, a lawyer with over 25 years with a marketing and career counseling experience, working with other attorneys. He hosts the podcast Counsel to Counsel, where he interviews leading attorneys and consultants about the legal profession, and his blog Counsel to Counsel has been twice named to the ABA Journal Journal's Blog 100. So the juror doctor is in. Stephen, welcome to the show.

Stephen Seckler: Thank you very much. Happy to be here.

Ron Bockstahler: So Stephen, let's kind of start with some of the challenges new lawyers are facing in building the practice, and I kind of really want to hit maybe a little focus on the marketing of their services and building their book of business.

Stephen Seckler: Sure. Well, what I always say to young lawyers is that when you're beginning your legal career, the most important thing you could do is become a great lawyer. Learn your craft. Try to learn as much as you can about whatever practice area you're in. But at a certain point, and especially for lawyers who stay in private practice, having your own clients is really what's going to make you a much happier lawyer. In my observation over the last 20-530, years, it's the lawyers who really have their own clients, who have their own book of business, that have more career flexibility, and they're basically just happier. And that's not entirely true because there are some niche practice areas that don't lend themselves as well to business development. But for the most part, a lot of lawyers in private practice are happier when they have their own clients.

Ron Bockstahler: Now, I seen-I believe you were on Steve Fretzen's show not too long ago. Be that, be that attorney. I think is what his show is called. And you know, Steve's always about building your book of business, and that's what really brings your value either at the firm or when you're going on your own. But how do you build that book of business, you know what? I mean, I'm young attorney. If I'm at a big firm, I mean, I'm working big time hours. I don't have time to go out and really make relationships. What? How are you suggesting a young attorney that's 10 or few years, 10 or fewer years practicing to build their book?

Stephen Seckler: So the first thing is to find a niche that you really like and enjoy, and really go deep with that niche, you want to be known for something. When you're a young lawyer, again, the focus really should be on being a great lawyer, giving great client service, and the clients could be the lawyers who you report to, the partners, as well as the real clients who are paying the fees. But as you get more senior, you there are things that you can do to continue to lay the groundwork for success in business development, as a young lawyer, maybe you might help a partner prepare some course materials for a CLE program. Maybe you might write some blog posts yourself. Maybe you might post some things on social media. But basically, as a young lawyer, you can begin to develop this niche, and you could also begin to start to produce some content yourself. Maybe as you get a little bit more senior, you might appear on a panel or on a presentation. Do a presentation, maybe it might be internal presentations. So even though there are very strong demands on young lawyers these days to bill a lot of hours, there are little things that you could do. The other thing is, as you get out of as you leave law school and you enter the working world, you still have relationships that will eventually bear fruit. These are people that you went to college with, people that you went to law school with, and if you just maintain and keep up those relationships over time, those could blossom. It's not clear which ones will become business, but as a young lawyer, just making sure to get out of your office once in a while, or calling a friend, or getting on a Zoom as we do now in the world of COVID, just being aware that you can't build a practice, you won't be able to build a practice if you don't connect with the world. And you can lay the foundation. It's like investing for anything. You invest for college. If you start at the moment when you want to actually have enough money for college, it's kind of late. If you start investing in the relationship building early on, and you just kind of pick away at it, it's like farming. You plant the seeds, and they will grow.

Ron Bockstahler: So you've helped a lot of attorneys adjust their careers, either moving from you know one firm, maybe they weren't happy, something wasn't working out, to other firms. I mean, is it recommended to make a lot of moves within your career?

Stephen Seckler: Well, within reason. I mean, it depends upon the reason for making the move. Sometimes people get off on the wrong foot. Not an uncommon reason for somebody to make a lateral move. Lawyers can be unforgiving, especially at the larger law firms, in terms of how people make a bad first impression. So sometimes making a lateral move can help you with that. A better reason, and a lot of times the reasons that I help and have helped people make lateral moves, is because the firm didn't really have the kind of clients, or they weren't able to do the kind of work that they wanted to do, and then sometimes they don't like the environment in general. They don't like the way the firm is run, the use of technology, the commitment to professional development. So there are sometimes non-practice reasons why people make lateral moves.

Ron Bockstahler: Kind of goes back to what you said earlier: find that niche that you really enjoy doing and become the best at it. Yeah, that seemed a common thing. I think that's what helps us creates just happiness in what we're doing. Which and let's we'll kind of hit on a little of the mental health issues in the legal industry. I know you've recently had a guest on your show, Ida Abbott, talked a little bit about you know designing or designing your retirement. I guess you know when does that start?

Stephen Seckler: Well, at at some firms, it never starts. But in a healthy firm, I think by the time lawyers are three or you know beyond 30 years into practice, that's something they might want to be thinking about, and something I've been focusing on more lately. Because a healthy law firm has to keep bringing, or any organization that's healthy has to keep bringing up the next generation of talent. And again, it's the same thing as investment. If you kind of wait until the day before you retire, you haven't really laid the groundwork for transitioning the clients. If you stay practicing until late into your 60s, into your 70s, and you show no sign of relinquishing control over the firm, then the up-and-coming talent may decide they're not going to stick around. So there's a threat to the firm because the clients may leave, and there's a threat to the talent management because the talent may leave. So I would argue that once you're into well into your 50s, that's when it's a good time to start thinking. Actually, from my own experience, when our last child went off to college in 2017 my wife and I participated in a program on aging, and it was a great program. And we didn't get the memo like everybody else in the program was like in their late 60s and their early 70s. And what was so great about they weren't lawyers; it was just other professionals. Although one of them was a musician who had trained as a lawyer and practiced for a while. And what I realized is that it really never is too soon to be thinking about about the next stage. So a couple of summers ago, I went out and bought a Martin guitar and started playing again.

Ron Bockstahler: All right, already starting to plan that retirement.

Stephen Seckler: Yeah, I won't be retiring for a long time. But

Ron Bockstahler: you know, I sent you that article recently, Martha McGarry. Let's talk about that real quick. Scadden's first female M and A partner says no to retirement, to forced retirement at 70, and moves over to I believe Mayor Brown. You know what do you think of that? What you kind of get some input on that?

Stephen Seckler: I think it's a really I think it's a conundrum because people age at different rates. I mean I was talking to so to have a hard and fast rule may you may have somebody that's got a lot of vibrancy at the age of 75 and you may have somebody that's really on the decline at the age of 70, so I heard two stories from the COO of a law firm called Burns and Levinson here in Boston. It's a mid-sized firm, and he told me two tales. One of a lawyer who was about 70 and had planned out a nice transition, transitioned all his clients over a period of three years, and then spent a lot more time with his grandchildren, got involved in a lot of nonprofit causes and had a happy departure from the firm. And then he told me about another partner who was in his late 70s and was already experiencing some cognitive decline. And partners at the firm were noticing it. The clients were starting to notice it. And eventually, he ended up leaving the firm. He didn't want to relinquish control. He just wasn't ready to leave because he didn't know what he was going to do next, and he died a year later. I mean, it was sort of tragic.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, that I could tell you within you know my firm of model office suites. I've in in kind of thinking about that, and and you know listening to your show with Ida, I went and looked back, and we've had seven law attorneys that have passed away while still you know at at working at our spaces, and two of I specifically recall talking to about when they would retire, and they said when I die. And

Stephen Seckler: well, I yeah, I don't I don't think that's the wrong answer for for everybody. But I think that you know there are some people that really get meaning. It's all about meaning. It's a it's the existential question of where do you how do you derive meaning? And I think for some people, like I had a friend whose father was a lawyer, and he went into the office until he was in his late 80s. He just loved being a lawyer. I mean, he wasn't going in full time, and you know, by the time he was in his late 80s, he certainly wasn't doing a ton of client work. But you can't really say, you know, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She was a Supreme Court justice until well into her 80s. Now, for political reasons, some may say that that was a colossal mistake. If you happen to lean the way I do, but she was vibrant, she was sharp, she was producing great work, and she loved her work. So I don't think the there's a right answer for anybody. I think a large firm, though, like like Skadden or any of the bigger institutions. I mean, I know accounting firms actually have mandatory retirement at a much younger age, they're like 60-two, I think. I heard, and the reasoning there is that again, it's the succession planning issue. It's how are the clients going to have confidence that they're going to continue to be served? How are the up-and-coming talent going to perceive that there's going to be room for them? But I mean, I don't think a healthy model is to say you have to leave. I think a healthier model is. I think it's good when Procter has a model where you have to give up your equity, maybe at the age of 60-seven. I'm not sure what the age is, but it doesn't mean you have to leave. You can work out an arrangement where you can continue to do work. But you know, and that, and some lawyers do want to continue to do work, but some lawyers just haven't been able to figure out what they want to do next, or it's just terrifying to think about. What's going to happen after the day they're not coming into the office, and so I'm doing a lot of work in that realm, and I'm really enjoying it.

Ron Bockstahler: And I want to get to you have a new program called the Next Stage, but before we get to that, I kind of want to reel us back just a little bit. You know, a lot of our listeners are going to be on the younger side, 30s, 40s, 50s, you know, and 60s. I guess still we're talking about young. And hey, careful, careful, careful! Hey, let's talk a little bit more about you know some of the challenges they're facing, and and you know is there is there a specific trait that really makes attorney really good at originating work, going out and getting new business, or is it is it a trait or something that they can learn?

Stephen Seckler: So I used to think that any lawyer could become a good rainmaker, and I don't mean like a $10 million rainmaker, but I used to think that any lawyer could develop a practice, and now I think that most lawyers can develop a practice. There are some lawyers that literally will always be best suited to being in the back office working on the deals by looking at the documents and not really interacting as much with the clients. So, and that's fine for some people, tax seems to be an area where that that seems to happen. But a lot of lawyers, a lot of the people that are in your offices, could definitely improve their marketing skills. And I think the biggest problem that a lot of lawyers have is that they save marketing for a rainy day. They are busy, they're doing work, everything seems good, and then they wait until they don't have enough work, and then they start marketing. And successful marketing is really like the tortoise and the hare story. The tortoise is the one that's going to win the race because you know you don't know when somebody's going to have a need for your services. And I have a friend who's in my network in our networking group providers, Michael Katz, and he talks about when he does presentations to people on marketing. He'll say, "How many of you going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 minutes? And like, nobody's going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 minutes. How many of you going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 years? And of course, a lot of people are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 years. And that is the essence of the problem with selling professional services. You don't know when somebody you meet is going to have a need for your services, or hear of somebody who has a need for your services. Therefore, showing up on a regular basis, making it a habit, is really important. And it's really hard for lawyers, particularly at the larger law firms where the hours are grueling, set aside time to do that. But if you could make just a little bit of time to sort of systematically drop a note, forward an article, post something on LinkedIn. Show up once in a while at a bar association meeting. Connect with an old law school classmate. Connect with a college classmate who's now in a corporate environment. Those things over time will pay off because at some point in the future, somebody may have a need for your services, and somebody may know of somebody who has a need for your services, or they may never have a need for your services, but you may hear of a need that they have.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, great point. And I would add to that: is be genuine, and you know, find a networking group or you know associations you can belong to that you really have an interest in. Not just you're not just going because you want to get work. I think people can tell.

Stephen Seckler: I agree. I mean, you and I are in Provisors, and what I love about Provisors, I've been a member for two years, and I'm like not drinking the Kool-Aid. I'm like guzzling it, and I say that jokingly. But I mean, what I love about it is people are just so eager to help each other. It's really almost not like the real world. I mean, I just got a referral of a lawyer who's thinking about these some of these existential issues. Person who who referred me is a marketing consultant, so she's not a lawyer, but she met this person who seemed like she had a need, and she referred this woman to me. She said you should call Steve, and she didn't. Actually, this woman followed up with me and said, "Did so and so contact you? I said, "No, I haven't heard from her, but I really, really appreciate the referral. So she said, "I'm going to call her again, and so she called her again, and she said, "You know, you really should talk to Steve, and we spoke, and we're going to work together. It's it's a it's a great network. So finding a networking group where people are genuine and authentic, like provisors, and we're not unique, but it really helps to be around people that are like minded.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, that makes me think of as a coach. Is it is it hard for other attorneys to admit they need a coach?

Stephen Seckler: It's really hard for attorneys to think that they need a coach. I mean, lawyers are sort of trained to think they can go it alone. They're going to figure it all out. I'm smart, and the best expression of this that I heard was another coach. He doesn't really work with lawyers. Somebody also improvisers, Sergio Simmel, and he didn't attribute the quote anywhere. But the quote is basically, "You can't read the label from inside the jar. And the notion there is that we none of us are self-reflective. I mean, the best coaches that I know, improvisers, all have coaches. I mean, that's how how meta it is. So why does a lawyer think that they went to law school and they learned how to research, you know, case law? Why do they think they should know anything at all about marketing? I mean, a lot of a lot of the coaching though is motivational. It's getting people to act and holding them accountable. So I'm not saying that what we do as coaches is rocket science all the time. Sometimes I provide content that people hadn't thought of. I give them ideas. A lot of it is just holding them accountable and saying, "Hey, you know, you said you were going to do 10 push-ups. So what's getting in your way?

Ron Bockstahler: That's that's a great point. You spend hundreds. Of 1000s of dollars going in and get this amazing education, and then you stop spending on yourself to continue the self improvement. And it really takes a push, I think, to get not just attorneys but all of us to just to go out there and go, "Hey, I do need someone to help me.

Stephen Seckler: Well, again, it has to do with like thinking with an investment mentality. I'm investing in something, and lawyers are not always so good at that. You know, you get a client, you do the work, you bill it out, and you get back the fees are paid. You know, in marketing, you have to do lots of different things, and many of them won't have any return. So when you know, I never promise anybody that I'm going to increase their business by any particular amount. So it it may seem a little bit nebulous, but what value am I actually getting? But you know, Michael Jordan had a coach

Ron Bockstahler: outside of Phil Jackson.

Stephen Seckler: I don't know. I'm not really a basketball fan, but

Ron Bockstahler: let's let if if we you know it's interesting looking at the return you get on marketing and and today you drive down the highway and you see a ton of billboards and it's I mean I bet 60% of them are from law firms or attorneys at least that's my perception. What what what was it like if you go back before 1976? I think when the Bates versus the State Bar of Arizona case, when attorneys actually couldn't market.

Stephen Seckler: I think that was a world in which lawyers did good work and the work came to them. And then if you were a young lawyer, you got to the law firm, you learned how to be a lawyer, and eventually those became your clients. That's not the world we live in anymore.

Ron Bockstahler: Today, you've got to go. I've never actually called an attorney from a marketing piece. I've always called someone I know and said, "Who do you know that can do this type of work?

Stephen Seckler: Well, I mean, the kinds of lawyers that put the billboards out are are trying to market to individuals, and the kinds of individuals they're trying to market to, they may not have a big professional network. I mean, lots of people get injured. Some of them have big professional networks. If I were injured, if a family member of mine were injured, I would absolutely reach out to a lawyer I knew, liked, and trusted. I mean, I happen to know a lot of personal injury lawyers already, but you know, if it was an area of specialization that I didn't know, I would get a referral. But a lot of people don't have those networks, so those billboards I think, still work. Social media is probably even more effective now, though, because when somebody has a need, it's pretty common for people to Google it. But I don't think the you know the general counsel, if he needs tax, you know, if he needs an Arissa specialist, I don't think the general counsel of GE is typing in Arissa and googling it. You know,

Ron Bockstahler: right? Absolutely, absolutely. Well, let's talk about you know moving on from that. Let's talk about other career issues that you are seeing attorneys are experiencing, just in the attorneys you're working with, because I know you're working with quite a few.

Stephen Seckler: So I really enjoy helping lawyers sort of think through career transitions. So a common theme is lawyers want to go in house, and helping them think that through. Those are some of the people that I work with on a coaching basis, and these are particularly people like if you're a fifth-year corporate associate at a large law firm, you're going to get called by recruiters. You're going to be able to go in house. You're going to be able to be reactive. But for the rest of the world wanting to go into a corporate environment, that may be a harder transition. So the skills that I work with my clients on in career transitions are kind of similar to the marketing skills. It's about networking, going out and getting information, building your network, leveraging the contacts that you have. I was recently working with a ninth-year associate who didn't make partner, so that involved a little bit of propping her up. She had she was at a big law firm and thought everything was going well. And you know, as does happen at a lot of these firms, she was kind of sideswiped and taken aback. We went through a whole process, and eventually, I actually ended up introducing her to the firm where she's now working, which is a regional firm in another part of the country. And she's not only excited about no longer working at a large law firm where the hours are really grueling, but she's also excited about starting to grow her practice, and so we worked on her networking skills and her communication, and through that, she was able to see that she actually has some skill in relationship building that will help her to build her practice as she enters this new firm with, by the way, lower bill rates. I have other clients who decide that they want to start their own practice. I've helped lawyers through those transitions, and a lot of the clients I work with, it's really helping them be, you know, develop a marketing mentality, develop marketing habits, and that's where people see the where lawyers see the greatest value in coaching because they could see like a real ROI, whereas career stuff is a little bit more nebulous. It's

Ron Bockstahler: interesting. So is it is it true that if you can get someone to do something for 21 days, they can create a habit?

Stephen Seckler: Never worked for me.

Ron Bockstahler: It didn't work for me either. I'm just curious if you found something maybe I need to know about.

Stephen Seckler: I don't know about the 21 days. It it takes a long time to get people to change their their behavior. It really does. I mean, I don't know. I'm just thinking about myself. Although I did realize that I needed to get rid of the COVID weight that I gained, I call it the COVID 15. And sometime around the beginning of May, that's when I really took the bull by the horns. And now, and I basically went to work work out every single morning except for the day after I totaled my car. I thought I should take the day off after that. But long story, short story, didn't matter. Was fine. I was fine. But now I woke up, like for example, today, and I didn't work out because I had a very early meeting, and I felt like my day didn't start off right. You know, I did meditate, which I do also when I wake up. So I, you know, but I think it takes longer than 30 days actually to develop marketing habits because it's very contrary to the way lawyers think they need to spend their time. You know, it's hard to fight the billable hour. The billable hour is immediate, in some ways, immediate gratification. You're going to do the work, you're going to bill it out, and for the most part, you're going to collect that money. It's a lot easier as humans for us to see and be motivated to do things where we get immediate rewards. Marketing is something that you have to do over a long period of time. So, working with a coach can help build that muscle. Like the reward you might get is like you know Steve Seckler will say like that was a great meeting you just had, good job, had a boy. And I you know I say that jokingly, but I mean you know trust me, it really helps. Like you know I'm losing I've lost my weight, and you know I'm telling I'm reporting to my wife. I get off the scale and I text her right away, and she's like, "That's great, you know. And I feel that much more motivated to keep working out every day and to cut down on the carbohydrates and eat more protein and and not eat mindlessly.

Ron Bockstahler: So, and those are things you get from a coach is the positive reinforcement. But you know, when you mentioned the attorney, the nine years didn't make partner made me think: Do you ever talk about the shortage, maybe a shortness in your abilities, or and how do you improve, you know, avoid in what your skill sets are?

Stephen Seckler: I'm sorry, you mean like if you're working on something where it's not really in your, it's not really one of your strengths, but you're kind of doing it anyway.

Ron Bockstahler: I guess it's kind of like card school. Do you have to come and say you aren't a great networker, and let's talk about why you're not a great networker and what you can do to improve. Or is it all just all positive? Okay, I'm here to support you and make you, you know, build you up.

Stephen Seckler: No, I mean, I have plenty of clients that I, you know, I have to work really hard with to sort of get them to act, and some of them will never do it. You know, they just they'll try and they won't. I won't say that's most of them, but some people are just not wired that way. I mean, look, if you don't like playing golf, and I only throw golf out because it's sort of like a quintessential business development tool, it doesn't work for me. But if you don't like golf, you're not going to play. You're not going to enjoy yourself. That's going to come across. You're going to make excuses not to do it. So, so you have to find out find things to do that you like that are consistent with business development, with marketing, with generating work. And if you fundamentally don't like people, and I don't mean like you're misanthrope, but you just you know you don't really like learning about where somebody's kids go to school, or I mean I enjoy learning little details about people. I'm very I'm a natural schmoozer, you know. But I mean, you don't have to be. I'm not a natural glad hander, but you know, if you if you really don't like doing that at all, then it's going to be hard to be successful. But I have a client who didn't see himself as a successful rainmaker. I'll use the word rainmaker, but I don't mean it to mean millions. And he went through this process with me. He'd been practicing for 20 years, and you know, he had some somewhat of a book of business, but it wasn't certainly wasn't enough to go to another AmLaw 50 firm. And he did end up getting a job with another AmLaw 50 firm. Again, I made the introduction. I didn't do it as a recruiter, but he went through this whole process. And now he's like, well, actually, I do like going to baseball games. I like going to you know, I enjoy being at basketball games, sporting events. I like having coffee with people, so we're focusing on those things that he liked doing. People always say, "Like, well, I don't want to go to networking functions. I don't like that. Well, you don't have to go to networking functions. I mean, in some ways, actually, networking functions can be a big waste of time. There's a there's an event in Massachusetts. There's an organization called Combined Jewish Philanthropies, and it's a hugely successful fundraising organization. It doesn't fund just Jewish causes, but you know, there's a lot of social service agencies that get their money from CJP. And every year they have a big accountants and lawyers dinner. They didn't have one this past year, obviously. And I always go, and I don't go because, and you know, the organization will make a big hype about it. I think it's frankly, if you don't know too many people and you go to something like that, it's not necessarily a great use of your time. I don't go there because I expect to get have meaningful interactions or or really get to know new people. Although sometimes I do meet new people, I go there because I know I'm going to run into a lot of Jewish and non-Jewish lawyers and accountants, and then I'll make appointments to have coffee with them and follow up. So I'll go to a meeting that has 1000 people, and I'll end up setting up three appointments after that. But I do it because I know I'm going to run into people. If if somebody doesn't know anybody in that environment, that's going to be you know you're not going to be motivated to do it. So I work with people to sort of figure out what are the things that they're going to enjoy that are going to give them the opportunities to make the connections that might lead to direct work or referrals.

Ron Bockstahler: So you kind of just took it right where I was thinking I wanted to go, and maybe I wasn't asking my question in the best way. But you got what I was looking for anyway. Was you know I talked to a lot of attorneys, and including myself, to say I hate networking. And okay, there's other things you can do. You maybe you hate the concept, but there's things you do like, like you know as you say, going to a baseball game that. Figure out the things you do enjoy doing, and do those things, and you can still build your your book of business through those type of activities, not necessarily the ones you don't like

Stephen Seckler: to do. Exactly. I mean, if you like nonprofit work, community work, you know, you want to choose those activities where you're going to meet the kinds of people you want to meet. So, like my one of my, I have a lot of stupid dad jokes that I use when I coach, but one of my repeat jokes is, you know, if you want to marry somebody Jewish, don't hang out at Catholic singles dances. I've been married happily for 20-seven years, every moment, every moment plus. But anyway, so so you have to choose those act. You you know, if you have your choice between two activities or two people that you're going to have coffee with, and one of them is a social worker, and the other one is the CFO of a bank. And you want to do more work with banks than go have coffee with the bank. It doesn't mean bank CFO. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have coffee with your friend, the social worker. But you know we only have a limited amount of time. So if you're going to make time to do business development, marketing, do the things that are things that you enjoy, as you're saying, and things that will potentially lead you to the community that you want to get to be known in.

Ron Bockstahler: Absolutely, I can tell you a real funny story. Is so, Steve Freston's been a client of mine for many, many, many years, and I went to him. This is a friend one day, and I said my partner had retired, and my partner was the I call him the ultimate sales guy talked to everyone, just loved doing that, and allowed me to kind of sit in the background. And I sat in Steve's office, and I said, "I got a problem. I hate networking. I hate I hate talking to people. I hate all these things. And he's like, "Well, Ron, you really don't have to go anywhere. Why don't you just open up your Rolodex and you can kind of show your age when you talk about a Rolodex, and just start calling people you already know? And you know, I'd looked at him and said, because I never thought of that. You know, so it was as simple as you know, here's the resource you already have. You don't got to go do a mixer of 100 people and you know, stand at the corner and talk to one person. Don't go to that mixer. Just make phone calls of the people you know. And you know, another thing I did, you know, not liking these things is the Simon Wiesenthal Center is a big organization, you know, worldwide, but in Chicago, Allison Slovakure is one of my good friends, and she's the director. So she would invite me to these events, and I say, "Alice, I really just don't want to go. First, I'm not Jewish. No, you'll go. You'll have you a good time. And I started going, and then I started buying a table, and then I started bringing people. And all of a sudden, you know, I built so many good, solid relationships from doing something that I enjoyed. No, they have the woman women of valor luncheon, except for this year, almost every year. And you go to things like that where you can, you know, it's it's your passion, something you're passionate about. And next thing you know, you're building great relationships, and you don't even realize you're networking, if you will.

Stephen Seckler: Well, it's interesting that you bring up Steve Fretzen because I've been getting to know him well, and I'm learning a tremendous amount from him. And Steve will take what I just said about not spending time with the Catholic singles dances to the next extreme, and and say that if you're having networking meetings, try to structure them so that you can come to them thinking about how you could help each other, so that you're not just having random acts of of lunch and coffee. And he's really good at that, you know, just because we all have ways that we can help each other. It doesn't mean that you know there's any specific thing that I'm going to get out of it. But if I could help somebody else, then you know you never know. You never know when you're going to meet your wife or your your wife's sister.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, and that's what I call being genuine, right? You're going because you got a genuine reason, not because you're looking for something. And I think that makes a big difference. So we're kind of running out of time. So I really want you to talk about the next stage for seniors that you got going on a new program you've launched.

Stephen Seckler: So the next stage is really something that I've gotten very excited about over the last year and a half. So as you know, sent you an article I wrote. My parents died at the beginning of the pandemic, and they lived long lives. They were quite elderly, so very sad, not tragic, and they did die of COVID. But what it really made me start to think about is what do I really want for my career, and then I start to realize there's a lot of lawyers, particularly in their 60s. It's not always could be younger, who really haven't thought that through, and who could really benefit from working with somebody to come up with a plan, a strategy, and to start experimenting. It's not like practicing law, the process that I take people through. The next stage is really about having an open mind, taking action. I base my work on something called designing your life, which is a book by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans, who are out in Stanford, and they apply design thinking to career management. Actually, Ida Abbott, who you've mentioned, just wrote a great book, which is more focused on retirement. Their book is more focused just on careers in general, but there's a bunch of principles that they that they raise that I think are really great for career exploration, and they're very very different than the practice of law. Lawyers sort of have a goal in mind, and they work towards it until they close the the deal, till they produce the will, until they you know move the case along and and and take the depositions and then whatever. It's very, very goal oriented. The process that I take people through is not you don't know where you're going, and that's okay. And what I love about working with people that are sort of later in their career, because I'm also at this stage myself, is if if you've made it financially well enough, I mean, all of us could be wiped out by long term care. But you know, forgetting that, a lot of lawyers are in this country are are aging, and you know they've made it, and it's more like they just haven't figured out what to do next, so they keep doing the same thing. But they have options, and I I love working with people to sort of draw out of them what is it that really makes them motivated, and part of it could just be doing more pro bono work, or being involved on committees, mentoring younger associates, or it could be something like spending a little more time with their grandchildren and cutting back on the practice. So there's all kinds of options, and it's an exciting time. And there are a lot of lawyers that are in this situation. There's a lot of aging baby boomers, and then the final piece of it that really excites me about doing this kind of work is that it feels like there's a need there, and the need is that, as I've alluded to already, you know, a lot of law firms need to think about these issues from a from an organizational standpoint because the health of the organization will rely on how well law firms continue to bring up the next generation of talent and and make sure that the clients that they have feel like they're going to continue to be served because I mean you know we never know how you know how long we're all going to be here on this earth and I'm not saying that every 70 year old is in in danger of imminent death but you know realistically if a law firm hasn't done anything or a lawyer hasn't done anything to to sort of lay the groundwork for transitioning clients and they're 70. You know, they could drop dead from a heart attack the next day, or they could start to go into some cognitive decline. So thinking these things through on the on a systemic level is really important for the law firm. And I think what gets in the way of it is that a lot of lawyers are afraid of of what's going to happen when they aren't going into the office every single day. So I really enjoy helping lawyers to figure that out and address that issue.

Ron Bockstahler: You know, we don't have time to go into it today, but I think having your back would be great to talk about the mental health. You know, we know there's a lot of addiction and and some not so good things that working so hard and the stress that can come from being a lawyer kind of falls into is into play. It's being addressed a little bit more now, but definitely something I think having a coach would help.

Stephen Seckler: There's a lot of work going on in this in this realm. I'm actually going to be doing a webinar. I don't have a date yet, or or any information specifically, but people could reach out to me. I'm going to be doing a webinar in the fall on keeping your law firm healthy, and I'm going to be speaking. And then a woman who runs basically a wellness program where she does basically wellness coaching and crisis intervention in institutions like you know corporations, but also law firms. So there are all kinds of issues that are getting more attention now. And you know succession planning, what people do with their careers is part of it. Just dealing with what you just said, substance abuse is another piece of it. And you know it's not all about just working. I mean, even if all you cared about was making money, you got to make the machines run properly, and that means paying attention to these issues.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, you know, you got to be happy with what you're doing, and and if we're happy, we can make the world a better place, right?

Stephen Seckler: It's a good starting point.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, Steve, I want to thank you for joining us today. It's been great talking, Jeff. I mean, there's so many things we could talk about, but I think it. I think I thought we were just

Stephen Seckler: getting. I thought we were just getting started.

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, we'll have to have another show. I think people need to know that you know having a coach, someone they can work with, is super important. You spent so much money to get to law school. Don't stop having someone help you out, someone in your corner. And you know, call up and get a coach at Counsel to Counsel. You can find [email protected] Is that

Stephen Seckler: yeah councilto council.com

Ron Bockstahler: Yeah, he's got a great podcast. I've listened to many of his shows. You need to tune in. You need to understand what's going on. Just give him a call because I think he can help help you no matter what stage of your career you're at. He can help you just you know either positive reinforcement or say hey look here's what you can do to make it better. But you know, take that extra step and find a way to enjoy what you're doing, Steve. I leave the final comments to you.

Stephen Seckler: Yeah, no, I agree. It's you know, life is too short. You know, start doing what you want to do if you can. I mean, it is a bit of a luxury, but if you could afford the opportunity to re, you know, to change the life and and try to build the life that you want, there's no reason not to do it.

Ron Bockstahler: You know, I could say that my career. You know, I've worked with 1000s of attorneys with my company, and I've seen so many just quit practicing law. Brilliant attorneys, but they were just frustrated, and it really had nothing to do with with law itself. It had to do with the business side, or had to do with you know other things that that could have been controlled if they were if they had a coach, if they had the right people, and and so I just stress you instead of getting frustrated, just reach out for some help, and you know, call Steve. He'll help you out.

Stephen Seckler: Well, thanks, Ron. I really appreciate it, and it's been really great meeting you and learning about your services. And I'm excited about your services because now I have a place to send all these people that are starting their law practices who want resources like paralegals that they don't necessarily want to hire, but they need on a fractional basis. I think that's a fantastic resource,

Ron Bockstahler: and and we appreciate that. You know, it took me a long time, just like a lawyer trying to figure out what their career is going to be. But it took me a long time to figure out what what I wanted to do, and and you know what my company would look like. Because I started my company 20 years ago, but it wasn't until 2012 that I really started you know working. Only work exclusively with law firms, and then I realize what I really want to do is I want to make legal services available to everyone in the world at an affordable price. But to do that, you gotta you gotta find a way for the attorneys to you know be able to do it, and that's what kind of led to what we're doing today. But you know, there's there's a way to do it, and I'm talking the attorneys that are working in corporate America that are making you millions and hundreds of millions of dollars that we all hear about, because that's not the majority. 70-6% of attorneys are with a firm of five or fewer partners, or they're on their own. But it's really hard to be able to afford to give low-cost legal practice and still survive. And I think that's where we're, and then we're seeing some sandbox start starting. You know what we got in Utah, we got in Arizona, California's talking about it. British Ontario and BC just announced their new programs that they're trying to adjust the way law is practiced. But our vision, or at least my vision, was to say, okay, how do we make it practicing law a fun thing to do, and you can do it and be successful and still help others? And that's where we came up with it. So, so working with people such as yourself, it just you know expands that that vision. Let's let's make attorneys help happy, and they'll help other people. Well, I

Stephen Seckler: think I think the model that you have is great because you know I think ultimately people that I think a lot of people that do end up in practice by themselves, if they've had the luck and fortune of being trained up by a bigger firm and they've gotten the training, they end up happier when they're in control of their own destiny and having a you know fractional resources that they could buy from someone like you, or an office that you know they don't have to spend a fortune on. You know that really, and and just buy what they need. That really does make it a lot more affordable. And the old model of you have to hire somebody to do everything. I mean, technology. There's so many ways to run a practice so much more efficiently now.

Ron Bockstahler: Times have changed. We know that people say in law things don't change fast, but COVID has really accelerated a lot of things in law change. So, and I don't see things necessarily going back to the way they were. So,

Stephen Seckler: yep.

Ron Bockstahler: Well, thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening, everyone. You've been listening to the 1958 Lawyer. We appreciate it, and we look forward to talking to you again real soon.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron or Amata, go to amadaoffices.com All the links are also available in the show notes.