Trisha Daho: Diversity, Advocacy, and Becoming the Lawyer You Want to Be

Strickland Bonner: So your lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. Endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999. It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Bockstahler and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast.

Ron Bockstahler: Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer. I'm Ron Bockstahler,

Kirsten Mayfield: and I am your co-host Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 Lawyer. Today we have with us Trisha Daho. She's the founder and CEO of Empowered, which is a six-year-old company that does exactly what that name implies. She is a business advisor to companies to help foster leadership internally and to achieve that ever-elusive trait of success that everyone wants. She boils it down, helps firms actually get at it, and she has 17 years of experience helping nurture companies, including Fortune 500 companies outside of this. For all of our lawyers listening, she is also a lawyer, so she understands what you're going through as well. Trisha , I have to say, I was on my LinkedIn and I noticed that you are a guest editor for Modern Counsel, which to all of our listeners, this is a magazine that caters to legal professionals, in-house counsel, outside counsel. That's really exciting.

Trisha Daho: Yes, thank you for having me. Yes, you're right. I that that actually will come out. It came out digitally, I think, last week or the week before, and it'll come out on in the actual print, in like April of next of next year, 2021

Kirsten Mayfield: Congratulations on that! That's fun and exciting.

Trisha Daho: Thank you.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Tricia, let's let's take you back to the third grade.

Trisha Daho: Oh God! Where was I in third grade?

Ron Bockstahler: We like to get started early on, but we want to understand what made you want to go to law school and maybe just start with the third grade and move us up through how you got to law school.

Trisha Daho: Let's see. I moved around a lot when I was a kid because my dad was a regional manager for a like a big box store chain. So I lived. I don't even remember. I lived in. I guess I lived in two different places in the third grade. I lived in Virginia Beach, and then I moved to Ohio, where we settled for the rest of my childhood. So we moved around a lot, which is why I'm not averse to change, and that's what I do. I change firms, I change mindsets. That's what we do with a firm. So I guess it was destined. I always knew I wanted to go to law school as a kid. I guess I had this idea in my head of what that would be, and when I got to law school, it wasn't anything like I thought it would be. I had an interest in doing international business law. I ended up spending about 20 minutes practicing in a real life law firm, and then I went straight into a global accounting and advisory firm instead, and majored in tax at the time, tax law.

Ron Bockstahler: Let's lead right into that. Well, first, you didn't take the traditional career path after law school.

Trisha Daho: No, as

Ron Bockstahler: you said, you joined a what did you call

Trisha Daho: it? A consulting firm. A global consulting advisory firm. Yes,

Ron Bockstahler: where you became one of the youngest partners.

Trisha Daho: Yes, I was 34 when I made partner there.

Ron Bockstahler: And what do you attribute that to?

Trisha Daho: Honestly, I think a couple things. I do attribute my legal education for a lot of that success. Being a great writer was important, and accountants usually don't have that background. And I got exposed to a lot of really interesting and, you know, learning things really early in my career. So, based on the kind of practice I joined with the the Big Four, I did writing and financial analysis and leading teams and doing big site visits and arguing with the IRS at the time, so I got a really great framework for being good at a lot of different things really early in my career, and I think that's why I rose through the ranks pretty quickly.

Ron Bockstahler: So this kind o f brings up a question that I actually didn't have written down for this interview, but you know we ask people quite often like, what was the value you got, or why did you go to law school? What's the value you got out of it, and how have you used it? Now we know from you know working with law firms that you know business savvy isn't necessarily something they teach in law school. But since you actually didn't go work with a traditional law firm, can you tell our listeners that here's some of the things that I actually pulled right out of law school that I was able to apply in my career.

Trisha Daho: Well, I guess to back up, I majored in accounting and finance and sociology when I was in undergrad. So I came from wanting a business background right into law school. That was just, I think, expounded upon with experience in law school. So I learned. Way of I became a big time problem solver, and that can be applied to nearly anything. I mean, I'm asked to do a lot of speaking with up and comers that are going through law school now on unconventional careers, because there is just so much you can do with a law degree, whether you actually practice law or not, and it'll serve you well regardless. So I would say problem solving, communication, really great communication skills, the ability to write well and speak well, and the ability to understand you know something problems that have lots and lots of variables because that's what lawyers do every day. So I think that is something that carries with you no matter what you end up doing.

Ron Bockstahler: So it's interesting. Let's let's jump into marketing real quick for law firms. Once again, not on our original agenda, but you got this amazing diverse background. You know, young partner at a major accounting firm, and something I really liked hearing you say was your problem solver, which in my mind every attorney has to be a great problem solver. But when I go to a law firm's website, I don't think I've ever read that. I usually just see a picture of a couple people standing there and a

Trisha Daho: skyline of some sort, right? Yeah, and it has no

Ron Bockstahler: meaning for me. It doesn't emotionally draw me in. But if someone said to me, anyway, I run a pretty good-sized organization that you know we're a problem solver and we'll help you. Why doesn't anyone ever say that to me?

Trisha Daho: I don't know because honestly, Ron, that is the superpower of attorneys. So, you know, attorneys are put in positions to have to solve business problems, personal problems, practical logistical problems, all by using legal education and legal experience, but they're handling very complicated situations that require a lot of skill set put together into one thing. And to me, that is their superpower. So that's very good. You know, that's a good observation. I do help firms with how they market themselves, and differentiating is honestly something that is almost never done. But once firms do it, they grow exponentially in comparison to their competitors. So honestly, I'm kind of surprised in 2020 we're still having that conversation. But frankly, even the big boys, the giant law firms, are not doing a very good job of explaining to their most important targets and clients why they should choose one firm over another, and that is the magic of getting down to what is truly authentically your superpower, and then expounding upon it, and all all the different avenues you can do marketing and business development.

Kirsten Mayfield: You know, I was on LinkedIn this morning, and I saw a man who's he's an attorney, and he was spotlighting a recent client of his who had actually gone to a bunch of other law firms and been told no one wanted to take his case. I'm not going to get into the details of it, but essentially they didn't see dollar signs attached to it, and this guy said, "You know what? I'm going to take it because I do think while it is a messy case and it's going to take some work, I do see that you aren't at fault here, and I'm going to fight for you. And they ended up. He's like, "You know, if we need to go to trial, just trust me, we're going to go to trial, and they had that bond. They had that connection of trust. They ended up, you know, preparing, going through discovery, and eventually this guy got a payout. They when they went through discovery, everyone was basically just like, okay, you know what? It's not going to be nothing. We do actually owe this guy. He wasn't at fault, and I wonder if those kinds of case studies? I know there's, you know, you got your laws. You can't delve too much information, but those kinds of case studies on law firms' websites is something that they could do, or just other ways to show that we're not in it for the money. We're in it to help our clients and our potential clients.

Trisha Daho: Yeah. case studies are really great indications of how you're going to work with your future clients. So absolutely, as long as they're not really dry and they do have a really strong, emotionally compelling component to them, they can be great ways to to show and illustrate what the power of the way you work with clients is absolutely

Ron Bockstahler: okay. So let's kind of get into our our topic here. You work with a lot of law firms on diversity and inclusion. Can you give us an idea how you're working with firms to change their culture?

Trisha Daho: Yeah. So you know, when I started this firm, I mean, the name of it is called Empowered. That was extremely important to me. I felt like a lot of partners in all kinds of different kinds of firms, so accounting and private wealth and law, were not often empowered to do their best work and be true leaders in the truest sense of the word. We typically go into the. Lanes of technical acumen because we have a strong desire to do things that are technical or be technicians, but we don't often sign up to be great business leaders. In other words, great builders of business and great people leaders, which is extremely important if you're going to have a thriving firm, and the results show it. You know, I grew up professionally in a global accounting firm, but the results between that lane and law are extremely similar. When I made partner, I think it was about 11% female partners, to use as an example. It's I think 14-ish now. Law is very, very similar in those statistics, and I'm talking equity partners because I know that lawyers divide themselves up between income partners and equity diversity, especially in law, is getting a lot more attention now than it did even five years ago, because clients of law firms are saying we expect you to have diversity in the teams that serve us. Now, the funny thing about that is most lawyers have, most law firms have focused on talent acquisition and finding more diverse talent, but they bring it into the firms without a real strong dive into equity strategies and inclusion strategies. So there's a lot of work to be done because if you don't do that work, the diversity you hired-be they women, people of color, LGBTQ, whatever-then bleeds out or never accelerates enough into real leadership ranks of a firm, so that the culture would would typically change organically more on its own without a lot of intentionality behind it. So I guess in a nutshell, law firms are typically still not where they should be, and that's where the work that we do comes in.

Kirsten Mayfield: You know, I'm immediately thought about the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, and they had released something I believe in the late '90s, early 2000s, talking about women in law, also talking about women of color in law. I believe they just recently, in the past few months, released like another revamped publication of some sort about you know re going into this topic, and when I had read that stuff, just you know messing around, just reading interesting things. Something that came up that was really interesting to me was like mentorship and sponsorship, and how those are two different things in law. Could you speak to that a little bit?

Trisha Daho: Yeah, sure. So, with regard to mentors, so here's the weird thing about mentorship, and I've experienced a lot of mentor programs. I've actually helped build them. The difficult thing about formal mentoring programs is that they feel very forced. They can be successful if both people are on board and develop a really thriving relationship. I consider sponsorship more like advocacy. Now, it would be great if the mentor and the advocate were in the same person, but it is also great to have several advocates and several mentors at the same time. You get different perspectives, but I will tell you from my own personal experience, without an advocate for what you want your career path to be that has some juice in the firm. It is extremely hard to accelerate any kind of career path up to equity partner and beyond into real leadership positions. So I recommend you have both a variety of both mentors and advocates.

Kirsten Mayfield: So I guess with an advocate too, there would be that idea of there's like a stronger bond and relationship there. So, you know, you you maybe want to see someone who would also who's who's gone through a path that you've already gone through, or that you're about to partake on. And so, like just to be very specific, if you're you know an ethnic woman. You would want to see an ethnic woman who is a partner. So, this goes back into diversity and inclusion. Like, what? How are the boundaries there? How do we like kind of bridge that gap in the meantime when there isn't, you know, an advocate per person? There isn't that equality of partnership.

Trisha Daho: Well, that's actually going to be the scenario most of the time, Kirsten. So, you're not going to find representation of a person like you with real juice in a firm if you are minority. So, that's important to note. I actually think that it's just there's two things going on there in your question. There is, I would love to be able to be mentored by someone who's who looks like me, has a lot of the same mindsets as I do around how how to practice law, how to maneuver an organization, so that I can have them as a mentor and and understand where they've been, so I know where to go. I think. Actually, that it behooves you to also have advocates that don't look like you, that are the real power players of the firm, that are typically white males at this point, so that you can get that perspective and understand that the having a power broker advocate is is more important for what you want to do as far as upward mobility than it is to have someone that that looks like you serve in that role. My bit, my frankly, my biggest advocates were white males in in my professional life.

Kirsten Mayfield: So it kind of takes a community to raise a a child

Trisha Daho: lawyer. Yeah, and every single other kind. Yeah, it is. It's also extremely important to have those advocates after you get to, you know, whatever level you're looking to get, because being successful as an equity partner-that is, a woman, a person of color, etc.-depends heavily on you continuing to have that kind of advocacy and support and mentorship even after you get promoted to those roles,

Ron Bockstahler: so Trisha, let's kind of let's bring this around with a little two-minute summary. Talk to me from the perspective of that powerful partner who's generally going to be the white male, you know, and talk to him. How should he be become an effective advocate for a a person of color, a woman that's young in the firm, and bring them up. What do you give? Give them some advice.

Trisha Daho: Well, I guess the first thing is know that it'll only serve you to do that. That that there is one singular golden rule of leadership, and that is to create more leaders to allow a space for people to be their absolute fullest potential in your firm, that only helps you as a managing partner, as a as a equity partner in the firm. The best way to do that is to be really, really, really intellectually curious about what that person needs as far as support and advocacy, what kinds of flexible work arrangements they might need, what kinds of tutelage they might need to become their best selves professionally. So that's number one. Understand what the experience is like. So that that requires a certain level of trust. I will be. I'm a pretty open book person, but there are lots of people that are not as open book as I am that need a certain level of trust to tell you this is what I'm experiencing that bothers me. This is what I'm concerned about about not getting invited to certain tables, certain opportunities, etc. Help me navigate how to how to maneuver that so that that it it ends up being in my favor, and you know, be willing to go to bat. We can't have cowardly leaders advocating for people that are not white males in the legal profession. We just can't. You have to stand up and and tell people it it only benefits us. Firms that actually have great levels of diversity and inclusion usually are experiencing results that are 17 to 25 percent better than they would if they had no diversity. So there's a there's a business case why this is important. But at the very core of it, if you give people the opportunity to reach their fullest potential, they'll be more loyal, they'll be more productive, etc.

Ron Bockstahler: Great advice. It's time that we broke the glass ceiling for women and minorities in law firms and for every business in this country, quite frankly, and the inequality of pay. So thank you for the input. And with that, let's talk about your mastermind program. So you have a mastermind program that you host for attorneys. Can you give us a little information on that.

Trisha Daho: Yeah, so we have worked with several law firms from small to medium-sized firms with regard to business strategy. So that's everything from the front end, what I call the front end, branding, marketing, business development, to the back end, which is process, client service journeys, and people and culture, technologies and processes. What we've learned through that experience is that a lot of smaller law firms don't have the level of revenue yet to afford a you know a strategy a strategic transformation program as a firm. So what we've done, and what we've also learned, by the way, is that often the biggest barrier to lawyers being incredibly successful in in their own law firms is that is themselves. What is what sits between their two ears? So what we did was create something that we've never seen in the market before, and that is a combination of mindset work and actual strategic transformation for a company or a law firm. So what that means is that you get mindset development. So what I mean by that is instead of stagnant mindsets, we create growth mindsets and we help lawyers get. Out of their own way, mentally and emotionally, so they can make their biggest changes that will lead to their biggest successes. And then they get a lot of how to how to be a business strategist for their firm. So how do they look at their firm as a business entity, and how do they rise up to be the best business leader and the best people leader for their firms, so that they can be wildly successful.

Kirsten Mayfield: Sounds a little bit like like business therapy. It is,

Trisha Daho: but you know, so much of what we do ends up being business therapy, and we thought we would codify it a little bit and make it accessible to a lot more small firms, so they joined. They also get a peer advisor experience, which is very powerful. So we put like 10 to 15 of them together. We spend about a year in that process with them, and they learn how to think of their firms strategically with regard to everything they do. They change and shift their mindsets to more of a growth mindset, and they also get to play off an issue resolve with each other.

Ron Bockstahler: So, how can attorneys get involved?

Trisha Daho: Well, they can they can email me at [email protected] and we will have a conversation and see if it was it would be something that would behoove them to be belong to. But I can tell you that our results are typically that they grow at two and a half times the rate they did prior to doing any strategic work with

Ron Bockstahler: us, and we know when you mean grow, that's growing your revenue base, that's growing your business.

Trisha Daho: Yes, that's growing your revenue base.

Ron Bockstahler: And and you know, I look at it. Hopefully, it's reducing your stress level. You know.

Trisha Daho: Oh, absolutely. Once you get to really focus on the really important things in your company, and you master how the work gets done, so you don't have to be so involved in it. The whole world begins to change for you.

Kirsten Mayfield: You know, you work not just with law firms; you work with other corporations. So I'm kind of seeing this, and correct me if this is a wrong. You've got non-law firms that are probably larger. You've got large law firms, and then this mastermind program is for more the mid to small sized firms. Do you see a difference in since Ron brought it up? Stress levels between those three different groups, and how do you approach your advice to those three different groups differently?

Trisha Daho: You know, I would say the stress levels are the same. The stresses are different.

Kirsten Mayfield: Interesting.

Trisha Daho: So, smaller firms are kind of-they haven't put a lot of what I'll call infrastructure around how they play the game, how they practice law, how they get new clients, etc. They pretty much just go out there and do the best they can and cross their fingers.

Kirsten Mayfield: Yeah,

Trisha Daho: and for some that's enough. They don't want to grow more beyond what their personal capacity is or the capacity of a couple lawyers and an admin. For those firms that are looking to create growth that ends up being more sustainable and systemic, it helps them leap some bounds to give themselves the space to think strategically about what they're doing every day, and to optimize everything they do with regard to how they do how they brand themselves, how they define their unique value propositions, how they market that to the world, and how they ultimately will go out and do real business development. There's a million ways to do business development, especially even in COVID now, that lawyers are exploring that they've never really thought about before, and and open their minds to the idea that it doesn't have to be how it's been for the last 100 years. That we can practice law in very different ways, and it's just not the application of technologies, which I think most lawyers get now. It is, I don't have to to work by the hour. I can have value based pricing. I can use models for how we get the work done, that that are more efficient and effective and cost saving to a client, so that I can focus on the client relationship, and I can focus on how to be strategic to them, business-wise and otherwise, and and have other people in my firm do the legal work. So there's a million ways that goes, but the the stresses are typically the same levels, but it's because they can't get around to working on their firms instead of just in them.

Kirsten Mayfield: Interesting.

Ron Bockstahler: You bring up a good point. It makes me think of some a different topic. But some attorneys are the rainmakers in their firm. They'll go out and they'll bring in the business and they'll have another attorney associate a paralegal admin doing the work. And there's other attorneys that really just want to do the work. And how do you coach them differently? First, how do you identify them, and then how do you coach them differently?

Trisha Daho: I think most attorneys know they know how to self-identify as one or the other. There are though a lot of a lot of attorneys, especially in smaller firms, that are doing both a lot. Business development and lots of legal work, but the way they're coached more differently is that if you're not, you know, I there's no judgment around what you decide to do and what you decide to focus on. I am very big on the concept of highest and best use. If you love to practice law and you hate doing business development, then get someone to do the business development for you, and vice versa. If you'd rather be a generator of business for the firm, then make sure you have really quality lawyers working underneath you, working with you to get all the work done. So it really is structural. Like you, you get to decide that. You get to design how you want this to work, and you get to design what you want to do in that in that infrastructure, and then we can get the talent to go around you to support what you want to do and what your vision is.

Ron Bockstahler: That right there is the home run. You know, we come in, attorneys come in. They're very smart. They're intellectual. They wanna. They know a lot. But what you just said is what I think so many don't think about. You know, focus on what you want to focus on? Unknown: Yeah, build a team around those other things.

Trisha Daho: Absolutely.

Kirsten Mayfield: So you mentioned that attorneys. It's not that they're not self-aware. They know, hey, I don't like doing the business part. Hey, I don't like doing all of this grunt practice work. I actually like the business development part. So it's not necessarily a lack of self-awareness. It's more just that they, in my perspective, it seems to be that they, they just feel like they don't have a choice, and I wonder if that's part of the way like the legal industry has been set up. Like, if you're not at a big law firm, you've got to deal with everything, and you don't have a choice to do other options. Would you say that that's true, or am I looking at this wrong?

Trisha Daho: No, I think you're absolutely right. I think, like all of us, there are blind spots. So I won't say that lawyers are particularly self-aware. They end up having a lack of self-awareness around lots of things. But what they want to do is typically something that they fully understand and just feel like they have to do certain things because they're a smaller firm and it's expected of them, but it really doesn't need to be that way. It's relatively easy to find resources to do the things you don't want to do.

Kirsten Mayfield: Well, how how do you find some of them if it's if it's easy? Do they just go into Google or are there like specific places to go to or is it all about network?

Trisha Daho: Well, I think first and foremost, make sure you have a strategy around what you want it to look like, and create the infrastructure and the org chart of how that will work, and how the pricing will work, and everything that goes along with that. How you're going to brand it, and then decide what resources you're looking for. Be crystal clear on what you want, and then we can help you find it. You can use your own networks. You can use all the different ways that lawyers interact with the rest of the world to find people. I would say, of all the sourcing for talent that I've done with law firms, we probably only use recruiters about a third of the time. Two thirds of the time, we're probably sourcing talent from other places, bar associations, and word of mouth, and LinkedIn, and stuff like that.

Kirsten Mayfield: Interesting. We have our legal support services director. She is the founder and president of the Chicago Paralegal Association, and they actually help with that kind of thing as well.

Trisha Daho: Yeah, there's all kinds of ways to get resources. Once you decide what you want, the way presents itself relatively easily. It's getting people to be honest with themselves about what they truly want.

Ron Bockstahler: So, Trisha, let's get people to know a little bit more about you before we call it a day. From your bio, we know you teach kickboxing.

Trisha Daho: Yeah, very important. Not right now. I can't go into a place with a bunch of people and exercise. It's it's kind of sad, but I guess I could do videos, but I'd rather not.

Ron Bockstahler: Okay, you foster Labradors. You still doing that during the shutdown? I am.

Trisha Daho: Yeah, I am.

Ron Bockstahler: You travel to far away places, but I happen to know that your husband's in France, and you're not traveling there right now.

Trisha Daho: Yeah, exactly.

Ron Bockstahler: So that's kind of tough. But tell me about Second Story and what that's all about.

Trisha Daho: Oh God, Second Story is an amazing organization. They are a nonprofit that does storytelling for the purposes of increased understanding among people. So that takes many forms. I'm on the board of Second Story. So they do performance. They used to do performances all over town with several storytellers. The story. The whole point. The premise of Second Story is that they tell the first story, and then the audience can tell second stories around what the theme of the first story was. That creates understanding and connection. They also do something called culture builds, which aligns with what I'm doing as a firm in the space. So they go into organizations, both for profit and nonprofit, and do things around unconscious bias and anti-racism and culture building, et cetera. So that is where I've helped them the most, probably. But they're an amazing. Organization with incredible people, and they're on their way up. They're they're you know growing exponentially right now.

Ron Bockstahler: So who who would second story? Who's their clients?

Trisha Daho: Who's their clients? Big law firms, believe it or not, law firms. They've got a whole schooling program that they do in the nonprofit space, but they do a lot of professional service stuff, so they they speak and do storytelling at law firms, accounting firms, private wealth firms. I'm trying to think of the things they have on their roster right now. Pretty much the weird thing about them is they do both middle market companies and organizations and gigantic, you know, Fortune 500 companies.

Ron Bockstahler: Interesting. How can someone get in touch with Second Story?

Trisha Daho: You can email me, and I'll get you to them, or you can email the director. Her name is Lauren Seeback. She's at [email protected] and it's second as in two nd instead of the word.

Ron Bockstahler: Excellent. Thank you for sharing that. We like to finish up our show with one one common question, and that is, what is the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed?

Trisha Daho: Oh, I had a hard time coming up with one. But what I will say is, I would love. I think it would help immensely everyone involved, including clients, if the legal industry would change their entire business model, like the whole the whole idea.

Kirsten Mayfield: Very simple solution, yes. If

Trisha Daho: the whole idea that you have to charge hours for your time, like be a slave to the clock, is just miserable to me. And there are so many other ways to do that that serve both you and your clients. Churning it from that kind of model into a value-based model, and that can take many different turns, is to me what would help the legal industry change in a million different ways that are positive.

Kirsten Mayfield: You know, my thing with billable hours. So I'm marketing director at Amata. So we recently have expanded out our services, and we're offering social media posts for firms because that's one of those things where you know you got to do it, but no one really wants to. And when we were approaching the pricing for that, we sat down and said, you know, it makes more sense for this to be a fixed fee thing than an hour or you know half hour, whatever time spent pricing, because you can you can accumulate your accumulate that in in a higher amount whereas you're kind you're constricted by the hour to 24 hours in the day if you never sleep. So do you see you know the billable hour? It was meant back in you know the 1930s or 50s or to 1958 actually, as I should know, because this is called the 1958 lawyer. The billable hour is meant to actually like increase lawyers' incoming money, so now it's kind of like it's come back and bite them in the butt. Seems,

Trisha Daho: yeah, you know, it. I think it it kind of infers the wrong incentives, and it changes the relationships you have with your clients. If you're billable hours all the time, the clients are not as forthright to spend a lot of time talking to you and giving you facts. I think it makes the practice of law more difficult, and I think it changes to change to a value-based model is to change the negative perception that billable hours has with clients and potential clients, and I think there's a way to make enormous money and actually control how efficient you are as a as a company if you do it that way instead of doing it as billable hours

Kirsten Mayfield: very interesting.

Ron Bockstahler: All right, and with that, what's the best way for our listeners to get a hold of you?

Trisha Daho: Probably to email me. You can you can find me at trisha t r i s h a at empowered lc.com or you can find me on LinkedIn at at trisha Daho.

Ron Bockstahler: Excellent. All right, we've been talking to Trisha Daho with Empowered. This has been the 1958 Lawyer. Thanks for joining us, and we'll hear from you next time.

Strickland Bonner: Thanks for listening to the 1958 Lawyer Podcast. If you like the show, tell a friend, and please subscribe, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. If you'd like to hear more about Ron, Kirsten, or Amata, go to amataoffices.com All the links are also available in show notes.